Need brain power

[Mudrat]

I'm tired of bodging together a front end to support the SRS and SOA.
Who has the best kit I can buy to bolt/weld on?

I have the MORE frame plates wheich add 3/16ths to the frame width, and the MORE SRS that I modified to install the D-44's and the SOA, but the problem is I am now 3" higher in front than the back and my high steer components don't clear the springs when I correct the pinion angle.
I need to lower the front spring perch's and dump the 6 degree shims (to correct the drive shaft angle).

Anybody know of a kit I can get?

Mudrat

[tufcj]

Which MORE kit do you have? I have their YJ spring SRS on my CJ. The one where a tube is welded thru the frame for the shackle. It only added about 1/2" of lift, which I levelled in the back with a 1" longer shackle. You must have installed something differently in your modifications. If you have the buggy spring SRS, they do create some lift.

When I did my 44 front, I used a GM Dana 44 housing, so that the cast pad in the pumkin was already SOA (and 2 1/2" wide spring). Since the knuckles had to be removed for the narrowing, the first thing we did was set the pinion angle. We had to machine about 10 degrees into the cast pad to get the angle right. Then we re-installed the knuckles, set caster/camber and re-welded them. My high steer (Tri-County Gear) fits great, and even with the SOA and 1 1/2" lift springs, the drag link and tie rod are almost parallel.

Sorry I can't help more.

Bob.
tufcj

[Mudrat]

Don't have the buggies, and I too welded the tube in the frame for the rear mounts. How did you handle moving the rear eyes outboard when you went with the 44s? :-|

I got a new set of rear hangers and welded a plate to the bottom of the frame and bolted it up. Couldn't use the holes because I had to come 1.87" out from the side of the frame... (you can also see the backside of the 3/16 frame plate).

http://members.cox.net/mudrat/posted%20pics/Rear%20perch.JPG

If you look on the front side you can see a significant drop on the MORE SRS ...

http://members.cox.net/mudrat/85%20CJ/100_0912-A.JPG

I'll go back and look at MORE again. When I e-mailed them my problems they didn't mention anything about a different kit. I have a set of stock YJ springs I could easily get reworked though, but That still leaves me with ~3" lift in front and 2" on the back of the springs and having to go an additional 6 degrees to get the drive shaft right :(:

Mudrat

[tufcj]

I narrowed the axle to Jeep widetrack width. I kept the springs in their stock location. You're going to create some lift having the entire shackle below the frame rail. You're also going to add some caster and tip the pinion down (as you already stated). I don't know what you can do having to outboard the spring mounts. Lift springs in the rear, stock in the front? As for the pinion angle, caster angle, and tie rod clearance, your only solution may be to grind the knuckles loose, get the pinion angle right, then re-weld the knuckles with the right caster/camber. That will take care of your tie rod clearance issue. I know it's a lot of additional work, but I'm sure you read that a SOA isn't as easy as some people lead you to think. :!: :!: :-|

[Mudrat]

I think if I can reduce the drop on the front of the spring I can dump the 6 deg shims which is whats causing the problem on the hi-steer set-up. I got these from a guy who had them under his CJ (he said) and the caster/camber should already be set. It was a shop in Alabama that did the work for him, and installed the lockers.

http://members.cox.net/pa-adams/Posted%20online/100_0868-A.JPG

How did you keep the pumpkin under the frame? Shorten the drivers side more than the P-side? I'm right at 63" WMS, stock wide track should be 62.5??

Mudrat

[tufcj]

I'm talking CJ widetrack. The factory front was about 55 - 55.5" WMS-WMS depending on who you talk to. I built both my front and rear 44 to 56" wide. It meant cutting about 4" from the short side and about 8" from the long side of a full size Chevy truck axle. We worked it so the short side shaft is a factory Wagoneer, only the long side is custom cut. When I was satisfied with the axle, I had a spare long side cut. There's a guy in Denver who will cut/respline a 44 axle for $65. Anything wider can somthimes be difficult on these narrow Colorado trails.

[Mudrat]

Sounds like the way to do it. Next time :shock: Right now I'm trying to find a way to make what I have work. Until I start making money again and getting paid I need to be creative.

Thanks
Pat

[Mudrat]

While I'm thinking about it, the hi-steer setup uses 1.25 /.25 wall DOM and I have 3/4" heims in each end. What I need is a pitman arm that will support a 3/4" bolt and has about a 2" drop.
Lifted 79 sent me a link, but it was a straight arm and didn't support a 3/4 bolt.

Suggestions? "Googling" for a pittman arm netted me nothing I could use.

Mudrat

[tufcj]

I'm sure you could drill the taper out of any pitman, the trick is findin that 2" drop. Mine is dead flat with about twice the material of a factory arm. With the SRS and 1.5" lift springs the drag link is only about 1" higher than the tie rod. I built mine using factory Wagoneer tie rod and drag link with tapered ends. I just had to shorten them by about 5". Took me a while to find a 7/8" die with the right thread pitch.

[Mudrat]

I'm sure you could drill the taper out of any pitman, the trick is findin that 2" drop. Mine is dead flat with about twice the material of a factory arm. With the SRS and 1.5" lift springs the drag link is only about 1" higher than the tie rod. I built mine using factory Wagoneer tie rod and drag link with tapered ends. I just had to shorten them by about 5". Took me a while to find a 7/8" die with the right thread pitch.
I have the stock (new) pittman and did some measuring - if I drill it out I'll only have 3/8" material around the new hole. I don't think that would hold up.

Try McMaster Carr <http://www.mcmaster.com> for your tooling needs. I found both LH and RH taps and dies AND my rod ends. for less than 1/2 of what I could find them locally and anything over 50 busks gets here the next day if you order in the AM. Their catalog is over 2500 pages :-)

Mudrat

[Toy Maker]

Pat, a coule of thoughts.
First, that setup looks like a kidney buster! You should look to loosing some of that shackle (a bunch). Should be abled to salvage several inches. No matter what, you may have to drop the front hangers some. I will try to draw up something you could fab. and e-mail it to you in the next day or so.
Also, the pinion angle can not be set properly until the springs can be loaded to normal ride height as it will change from the no-load condition. After proper pinion angle is determined, the caster angle must be checked and corrected, then you can worry about the steering. 3/8 inch around the bolt on your steering arm is all right, more would be better. However you do it, you should have the hole drilled close then reamed to a snug fit to the bolt you will be using to prevent wallowing in the hole. '75-'79 ford vans E100 & E150 w/PS used a steering arm with about 2" drop. Eng #D5UA-3590-CA. Stock arm will give you about the same 3/8" after reaming.

[Mudrat]

Pat, a coule of thoughts.
First, that setup looks like a kidney buster! You should look to loosing some of that shackle (a bunch). Should be abled to salvage several inches. No matter what, you may have to drop the front hangers some. I will try to draw up something you could fab. and e-mail it to you in the next day or so.
Also, the pinion angle can not be set properly until the springs can be loaded to normal ride height as it will change from the no-load condition. After proper pinion angle is determined, the caster angle must be checked and corrected, then you can worry about the steering. 3/8 inch around the bolt on your steering arm is all right, more would be better. However you do it, you should have the hole drilled close then reamed to a snug fit to the bolt you will be using to prevent wallowing in the hole. '75-'79 ford vans E100 & E150 w/PS used a steering arm with about 2" drop. Eng #D5UA-3590-CA. Stock arm will give you about the same 3/8" after reaming.
Thanks Tom, I'm trying to redo the front mounts. As they are (from M.O.R.E.) they add about 3.5 inches to the front which has pivoted the axle as you can see. I have some 3/16 and 1/4 plate cut but not drilled yet to weld together. I am also considering just drilling the current mounts with just enough room to clear the spring eye and bushing and maybe move the mount back 3/4 to 1 inch.
The rear shackles are about the stock length so how short can I really go and still have them miss the frame at full crunch??
This and the rollover valve is all I need to do to finish the CJ.

Thanks again.
Pat

[Toy Maker]

If you shortend the drop of the front hanger, you will make the ride and handeling worse yet. When it is right, the high steer drag link should go over the springs, and so should the tie rod if you are using the high steer arms for the tie rod also. It looks from the picture that the arms are about in line with the spring, so the front of the spring needs to go down to clear the linkage. Thats why the mention of shortening the shackles. I sent you an e-mail with a fairly easy suggestion for lowering the shackle height, don't know if it will come through.

The reason the MORE kit uses the drop for the front of the spring is to simulate the OEM drop of the shackles while using the tube through the frame approximates the location height wise of the OEM rear hanger. That way, the setup is a bolt in for the axle by keeping the spring in relatively the same place as OEM. By using the droped shacke, you have created the problems you have encountered. The spring travel geometry of the MORE kit is not ideal, however further raising the front of the spring will compound the design shortcomings. :roll:

[TnD]

Just skimmed the thread, so may have missed something, but if the main concern is the tie-rod hitting the springs, you may want to contact OTT Industries. They make a very high quality high-steer arm set out of 4130 Chromoly, and it has 1.5" rise incorporated into the steering arms to deal with just this problem. Not cheap, running about $600CDN, but IMO the best arms on the market.

[Mudrat]

Just skimmed the thread, so may have missed something, but if the main concern is the tie-rod hitting the springs, you may want to contact OTT Industries. They make a very high quality high-steer arm set out of 4130 Chromoly, and it has 1.5" rise incorporated into the steering arms to deal with just this problem. Not cheap, running about $600CDN, but IMO the best arms on the market.

Thanks,
I got some offset washers that allow the full pivot for the heims. Don't have an after picture posted but this was my problem to start with. The offset washers add about 3/4 in to the height so I have some room between the tie rod and spring with everything torqued down.


And I stlll haven't found a pitman with enough meat to drill for a 3/4 bolt. May have to resign myself to using a 5/8 bolt and sleeve the heim joint :smile:

<<< passenger ............... driver>>>
http://members.cox.net/mudrat/posted%20pics/tierod-draglink.JPG http://members.cox.net/mudrat/posted%20pics/hi-steer%20LFT%20side.JPG

{edit - found an after shot with the offset washers ... and pittman ... }
http://members.cox.net/mudrat/85%20CJ/New%20Heims.JPGhttp://members.cox.net/mudrat/85%20CJ/Drag_link.JPG

Mudrat

[Mudrat]

Have I hit enought threads yet???

Get out the Vote!! (http://www.top4x4sites.com/cgi-bin/arp/rankem.cgi?id=MCfrom)– strong arm folks if you have to!! Turn out the family, get the neighbors involved, have everybody at work vote at least once. But get out and

Vote!! (http://www.top4x4sites.com/cgi-bin/arp/rankem.cgi?id=MCfrom).

We are just 1 vote away from falling off first page. This is the most dismal month BT has had since we made Page 1? :smile:
Consider this as a prepitory round for Nov 2!!

A Vote!! (http://www.top4x4sites.com/cgi-bin/arp/rankem.cgi?id=MCfrom)button at the top would help. Most folks won't go looking for Vote!! (http://www.top4x4sites.com/cgi-bin/arp/rankem.cgi?id=MCfrom) in somebody’s signature.

Mudrat :(: