PICS & QUESTIONS ABOUT MY 401

[GADJIT98]

I have recently aquired a 401 :lo1l: and am in the process of disassembly and have a few questions:

** should you label the pushrods just in case you re-use them?
** should you label the rockers & bridges?
** label the head bolts?

Sorry for the stupid questions, but this is my first teardown. The machine shop will take care of assembly, etc, but I would like to get my hands dirty on this part of the process..

Are there any particular things I should make notes on during this? Any special things that need to be labeled, etc? Any surprises, like taking something off and it having a big spring in it? :!:

Also, any ideas on why the rocker bridge is cracked & the rocker arm is crooked?

Any observations on the following pics?

Thank you in advance for your information. I truly appreciate the effort & information you guys have given to me so far :t:

Dave

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/THEBEAST.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/DRIVERSREARROCKER.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/DRIVERSPORTS.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/DRIVERSVALVES.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/FRONTVIEW.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/HEADCASTING.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/INTAKEVALLEY.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/PASSENGERPORTS.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/PASSENGERVALVES.jpg

[fuzz401]

should you label the pushrods just in case you re-use them

junk them get new

should you label the rockers & bridges

junk then too get new


label the head bolts
only 2 sizes bag them till needed

[tufcj]

Looks like a good builder. Like fuzz said, the price of rockers and pushrods are a small percentage of rebuild cost, trash them and buy new. It looks like some are OEM and some are replacements anyway. The OEM parts are 1 piece aluminum, most replacements are a steel bridge with aluminum pads. You could have the heads machined for Chevy style rockers while they're off. It takes machining about .250"-375" off the rocker pedestals and opening up the holes to 7/16". You will need to use guide plates and hardened pushrods.

The 502 casting heads are pretty much standard fare on 74 and newer 360 and 401 engines. Nothing special there.

Knock out the freeze plugs and hit the water jacket passages with a pressure washer until the water runs clean, that will get rid of most of the loose rust.

Bob
tufcj

[JeepsAndGuns]

Man yours is clean compared to what mine looked like when I tore it down. I agree with the others, toss your old pushrods and rocker arms/bridges and buy all new. Thats what I did. I also bought new head bolts and rod bolts for mine.

Look here for a few pics of mine http://fsjworld.tenmagazines.com/mygallery.ten-id-3428-album-6709

[rollen dean montoya]

most engines are a mess. it took me 4 hours to clean a 403 olds so i
could begin the rebuild.

[Mudrat]

Dang - that thing is clean already (compared to what I started with) - just slap a new coat of paint on it and drive on :t:

Presure blast the crap out of it (literally), have it tanked, machined, tanked and then build :wink:

[grignac48]

Well it looks like you are at the same stage as I am with mine.

What are the thoughts about the timing cover/oil pump/water pump assembly. I have seen alot of stuff here on problems with upgrades to timing gear sets, oil pump, and dizzy follies. Has anyone got this down pat where we can avoid problems. Say a standard rebuild. I know mine had oil pressure problems when it was parked. All the info is kinda overwhelming.

Just basic stuff to replace or rebuild. What to avoid mostly. :study:

[GADJIT98]

I second the question on the oiling/timing stuff. I plan on using Bulltear dizzy & cam gears and most likely the front stuff on the engine, but is it fool proof on the install? or does it require an expierienced AMC builder to get it right?

Here is the game plan so far........

finish disassembly----Does anyone have a spec sheet for measuring everything?

Take it to the shop for magnaflux & Vat

Line bore crank & cam if needed, cylinders if needed

Balance & Blueprint

9:1 cast pistons, Performer intake, 600-650 carb, BIG headers, new pushrods, rockers etc, 3 angle valve job, new oil pan, valley bypass,

What do you guys think of a Performer vs. this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/jeep-amc-v-8-offehauser-dual-port-4bbl-intake-manifold_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ36474QQitemZ80 07856582QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Am I missing anythng? Do I need roller rockers? Which cam for a good performance sounding idle and still get good vacuum for P-Brakes, Anyone got a Performer for sale, or ANY parts that will help me?

Dave

[GADJIT98]

OK, I got the heads off today and measured with a dial caliper in the cylinders....actually only the front one on the drivers side....and got 4.165 :t:

YeeeeHaaaaaa a virgin block :lo1l:

There has been some head work done. Some of the rocker arms are different and some of the rockers have a slightly different metal color to them. This is only the case on the cylinders with aftermarket rocker bridges. Also, the drivers side head gasket did NOT have the triangular holes for the water jackets.....wassup with that? Any problems with that? The passenger side bank appears to only have had a few new rockers & bridges

I am scrapping the pushrods, rockers, bridges, head bolts, and rocker bolts. Also taking the heads for boiling or vatting on Monday.

Now I am at a crossroad. Roller Rockers or Not? Is it as simple as bolting them on and having someone adjust them? Or is it pretty involved with machine work and calculating the geometry of the valve train? What are the HP gains with Rollers? Is it worth it, or can I get 350 to 400 HP without them? I plan on using 9:1 pistons.

Should I get a Performer Intaker with an EGR or No---2131 vs 3731?

Fuzz401-----you had the right number, I slept late :?

Thanks
Dave

[tarior]

I'm not as experienced as some of these guys out here, but I say roller rockers good, you will need new studs, of course. I used ARP studs for SBC on my 360, with no mods to the heads. You won't need rollers, but they are nice, and if you are buying new rocker arms, you may as well spend a few bucks more and get a set of Sharp's rollers. They adjust just like stamped rockers. However, if you use valves with a tip and/or overall length that is different from stock AMC, you will need to build/ buy a pushrod length checker and order correct length pushrods. If you're going over 400 HP, you may as well switch to studs on the heads. Replace your rod bolts and have the big ends resized. New main bolts; good. I hear BBC (two bolt)are the same, studs aren't a bad idea. EGR; bad. Buy the one without.
I'm sure that if I missed anything, or am way off, the guys here will set it straight.

[tufcj]

Harland Sharp (www.harlandsharp.com) makes a bolt on roller rocker P/N SV4004. Any GM style rocker will require guide plates, aftermarket studs, and the machining I described above on the heads you have.

Don't worry about EGR unless you have to pass emissions and they do a visual check. I've got one of the Offy dual ports, but I've never run it (bought it for $50 at a swap meet). I've heard mixed reviews on them.

Big tube headers will hurt your bottom end a bit. If you're rock crawling or trail riding, stick to 1 5/8" tubes to get a little more torque.

If you have the extra cash, do a port/polish on the heads along with your other mods. It really woke up my 360.

Bob
tufcj

[tarior]

Harland Sharp (www.harlandsharp.com) makes a bolt on roller rocker P/N SV4004. Any GM style rocker will require guide plates, aftermarket studs, and the machining I described above on the heads you have.

Don't worry about EGR unless you have to pass emissions and they do a visual check. I've got one of the Offy dual ports, but I've never run it (bought it for $50 at a swap meet). I've heard mixed reviews on them.

Big tube headers will hurt your bottom end a bit. If you're rock crawling or trail riding, stick to 1 5/8" tubes to get a little more torque.

If you have the extra cash, do a port/polish on the heads along with your other mods. It really woke up my 360.
Bob
tufcj
Yeah, and what he said, too!

Edit: fixed it for ya... didn't make sense inside Bobs post. 'Ratt :wink:

[jeepsr4ever]

Carefull that your not just measuring the ridge at the top. You should use a bore guage or have a friend use one.

[Mudrat]

2" tube acceptable compromise on a built 360 (actually a 382 after bore)?

[GADJIT98]

Thanks for all the info & opinions so far, they are really helping!

Here are the latest pics:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/PSIDEHEAD2.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/PSIDEHEAD.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/PSIDECYLS.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/HEADGASKETS.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/DSIDEHEADGASKET.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/DSIDEHEAD.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/DSIDECYLS.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/DSIDEBORE.jpg

Got any insight as to the condition? Anyone notice the difference between the two head Gaskets? The drivers side doesnt have the triangular cutouts ........

BTW, I am building this CJ for a street rod with very little off roading. I plan to get another one, maybe a 5 and build a good off road machine.

Thanks

[Mudrat]

Hey Mr GADJIT - got a 404 error on all pics????

[GADJIT98]

Mudrat,

Dunno what happened, they should be fixed now.

I took the main caps off.........

I will post pics soon.

Dave

[Mudrat]

Well they're working now ?? And yours is STILL cleaner than mine was when I started - at least your cylinder walls have a reflection :wink:
Click the pic for larger view ...

http://members.cox.net/mudrat-jeeper/AMC_360/DVR_side-sm.JPG (http://members.cox.net/mudrat-jeeper/AMC_360/DVR_side.JPG)

This is the drivers head after I got it off and put it on the bench!!!

http://members.cox.net/mudrat-jeeper/AMC_360/DRV_head-sm.JPG (http://members.cox.net/mudrat-jeeper/AMC_360/DRV_head.JPG)

'Course - this is what it looks like when I brought it home :t:

http://members.cox.net/mudrat-jeeper/AMC_360/360-2.JPG
Larger better pics to follow on this one :?

[GADJIT98]

LOL @ the head pic

Looks like your head was snorting coke :razz:

Great looking motor. I assume you used the rattle can stuff from Ebay??

How does it hold up long term?

If you used another type, what is it and where can I get some?

my digi cam batteries died, so pics will be here monday night of the mains etc.

Can I just pop the rod caps off, take a pic, and then hand tighten them back, rotate and doit it again, etc. Or should I be more careful with this part. My crank looks to me like it is in good shape to the naked eye so I want to protect it as much as possible.

Thanks
Dave

[Mudrat]

Hehehehe - that's kittly litter coming outta the head!!!! :shock:

It's a rattle can of AMC Blue for the local dealer, don't know how it holds up yet other than the lifing cahin scrated it pretty good :(: I just started putting on the extra stuff, brackets that I have, motor mounts etc. Got to get the rest of them and a tranny before I can stuff it in the CJ :smile: But it'll be a screamer once it's in there!!!

[fuzz401]

But it'll be a screamer once it's in there!!!


:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :!: :!: :!: :!: :-|

[GADJIT98]

WTF IS THIS? Is it necessary, or overkill? I found it on a motor on ebay and was curious because I have never heard of or seen this modification.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/6b_1_b.jpg

dave

[Mudrat]

WTF IS THIS? Is it necessary, or overkill? I found it on a motor on ebay and was curious because I have never heard of or seen this modification.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/6b_1_b.jpg

dave
Ah Grashopper, it's an early edition oiling mod. Let us listen as the Master speaks =D> :wink:


... that was one of the first set of mods to do to a AMC V8 to decrease the rear mains from spinning. Its a great little bandaid however it was found to be less than effective when the oil foamed and the pump started gurgling bubbles. The valley line or smaller feed holes (cam bearings) or "pills" (smaller feed holes in the pushrods) are the better answer.....besides extra capacity pans....ect.
This and several other oiling improvement mods are covered in the AMC Oiling Thread (http://www.bulltear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4157). This is one of the lesser obvious modifications because most of us don't know our way around inside the oil-gallerys of an AMC block - MC is small enough to fit in there :idea: So I need to rely on "He that shall be named" as well. :t:

Pat
Is it Monday still?? #-o

[GADJIT98]

OK, I have hit a MAJOR dead end.............

I was referred to a machine shop by a friend who said they knew how to build an AMC V8. I spoke to the guy there and he really impressed me with his willingness to get me the HP I was shooting for. He even started quoting me some prices on parts.....$9 per OEM rocker, $22 per OEM Valve, $175 for labor on the heads doing a 3 angle, etc.

Now the labor doesnt sound that bad, but DAMN, his parts prices are high!

He also stated that he would do everything for me using parts that I purchase but there would be absolutely no warranty unless he supplied the parts.

Again, I am new to building engines, so please be gentle. Other than rocker arms, valves, valve springs, could someone give me a complete parts list for the heads?

My thinking is that I will get the parts myself, let this guy do the machine work, and build this damn thing on my own or with some knowlegeable person in my area
****************JACK************************
looking over my shoulder and consuming as much free beer and pizza as possible.

The heads will be the hard part, but the block, I assume, will be pretty straight forward. Line bore if needed, cyls bored, hot tank & magna fluxed, new pistons, bearings, cam, pushrods, lifters, and bolts. Am I forgetting anything other than the oiling stuff for the front? And speaking of the oiling stuff on the front, would a MOD or Owner PM me and discuss the Bulltear items for the oiling system. They appear to be what I am looking for, but I dont want to spend tons of cash and put it all together and miss the $10 part that makes it all work and blow my motor up.......

As you can tell, I am pretty nervous about this, I dont mind spending the cash, I just dont want to spend it and do something stupid, or more likley, forget something stupid, and have to spend it all over again.

Anyone got an AMC V8 builders manual?

Thank you again for all the info and also for your patience with my stupid questions. I should have more pics up soon ( havent made it to WMT for batteries yet )

Dave

[Mudrat]

Well you can do what I did - buy the parts have them delivered direct to the shop and have them do the work (I didn't/don't have the time or space to do a clean build). My guys gave me 1 year or 36K miles on the warranty, plus the first 500 mile break in check (change the oil and retorque everything). That's for a street motor - not one of their race jobs, but both the 258 and 360 are well past "street stock" (cammed, jammed, bored, decked, balanced, cross drilled, ground and polished, etc...)
If your builder won't give you a warranty by doing that - find a different shop 'cause he's trying to find a way out.

Just my 2C

Pat

[tufcj]

I like this book. I didn't do everything he described to my 390. I incorporated some of BJ's ideas with some of MC's from the "AMC oiling" thread.

http://www.hobbyobsession.com/bjsbook.html

Bob
tufcj

[fuzz401]

that is a very good book

[GADJIT98]

Thanks for the recomendation on the book.....I ordered it today.

HOUSTON, we have a problem......

I took the pistons out today and the main caps. Rod #1 had NO bearing material at all in it and was flopping around so badly that the piston was bottoming out on the crankshaft counterweight. The bearing surface on the crank is visably smaller on the #1 side than the #2 side. Does this mean all will need to be ground or just the first? I was hoping to get away with polishing, but it will require turning the crank to some degree.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/MAINCAPS1.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/MAINCAPS2.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/MAINCAPS3.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/MAINCAPS4.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/MAINS12.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/MAINS34.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/MAIN5.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/RODS12.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/RODS34.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/RODS56.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/gadjit/RODS78.jpg

Judging by the photos, can anyone tell anything about the crank that may be helpful? I also took off the thing that the oil filter screws on....like 7 small bolts...what is this called? There are 2 gears underneath it which did not turn when I turned the crank. I have removed the dizzy. Is this normal? Does the dizzy somehow drive these two gears or have I found the reason the first 2 rod bearings were shot?

Do you have to remove the H-Balancer to get the crank out? Do you need a puller for this? Do you need to make sure the balancer is "clocked" in the same position when it is put back on?

After I get the balancer off, can I just unbolt the stuff on the front of the motor ( timing cover, etc ) and pop it off or is there more to it? I know I will need to do some thing with the timing chain & cam, but what? Is there a thread that details this part of the disassembly?

I know this is alot of questions and I do appologize for my ignorance , but I am getting pretty excited so far, and a bit nervous , at the idea of building this thing myself.

Thank you again to everyone, please keep the info coming.

Dave




:lo1l:

[jeepsr4ever]

Crank needs a new grind on it. Your oil pump wont turn if the distributor isnt installed. The cam gear drives the distributor gear and that drives the oil pump. Those bearings look pretty roached

[Mudrat]

Hard to tell scoring from the pics (the focus on my PC doesn't work :wink: ) but the color? Gotta agree with MC - 'don't look good'!!!!
The shop should be able to measure the scoring in the crank to see if you can turn it under and then oversize the bearings. I went 10 under, cross drilled, and a mirror polish with the 10 over bearings.
The balancer should have a keyway to align it on the crank and that keeps it "clocked".
The rest of the 'stuff' just un-bolts. I had a problem getting the cam out because I couldn't get the timing chain and gears off. THAT was fun!!!! I wound up taking all the main caps off and tilting the crank to get the chain off then pulled the cam and gear together (they were getting replaced anyway :roll: )

Pat

[GADJIT98]

Today I took a Dial caliper and measured the first rod journal....I think that is what it is called....anyway, the place where the rod bearings go, and the #1 position was .003 smaller than the #2 position. Assuming this is the maximum damage, a -10 will be mathmatically sufficient for a grind. This brings up a second question. How reliable is a 10 under crank? A friend of mine said that if I was looking for 400 HP, to get another one because turned cranks were crap and always gave him problems later..........of course he is a Toyota mechanic, but I let him in my shop anyway :shock:

There is very little bearing material in both of the front rods. Do I need a machine shop to tell me if I can re-use any or all of these rods? Where can I get used rods, and are the OK to use in a rebuild? If I go with aftermarket forged rods, can anyone tell me the price range and what to look for?

I hope to soon be done with the basic questions and on to more performance oriented ones. Right now I have ordered the book that was recommended and would like to find a TSM. Anyone know where to find one?

Thank you again,

Dave

[Mudrat]

Dave,
You need to take your measurements then subtract from the original (stock) diameter of the journal (I don't know that number but can try and find it if you don't have it) - not another journal on the crank. Doing that will give you relational wear (#1 ears faster than #2), not total wear (#1 wore .005 more than stock and #2 wore .002 more than stock).
Seen and heard lots of folks with turned cranks that haven't had a problem. As for HP?? Desktop dyno has me over 400 HP and I'm not worried (yet 111!!! )
Curious what you mean by "There is very little bearing material in both of the front rods." If it's just the bearing face that was worn, the rod's should be OK. But again, measure them and compare to original dimentions. I've heard and read that shot-peening to relax the stress in the rods will also shorten them a bit. Can't be much, but one of the 'big block' guys whould be able to confirm that. ;-) If it's true then decking the block will compensate for the shorting :t:

Pat

[GADJIT98]

Pat,

In my next post I will give the specs per my dial caliper and photos of the first two rods & bearings. What I meant was there is virtually no material, meaning that there is a piece about the size of a quarter left and the #1 rod had a ton of slop in it before I un torqued it. My assumption is that the rod is shot as well as the corresponding journal on the crank. Is it OK to use another single rod from another used engine? If so, anyone got a couple of rods for sale?

Thanks
Dave

[tufcj]

If the rod bearing was "spun", meaning no longer positioned in the cap correctly, then you MUST have the rod end resized. If it's too far out of spec to resize, then replace it, you'll be money ahead in the long run.

Too bad you didn't hear that 401 run before you bought it. It would have had a noticable rod knock.

Remember that a .010" undersize is a total measurement. To go .010" under, they only take .005" off the surface. If you're seeing .003" smaller already, scratches are probably deep enough that it won't clean up at .010". Bearings are made all the way to .030", and you can get respectable life out of it in every use except all-out racing.

I've seen the old Jeep L-head 4 cylinders with rod and main journals all the way to .080" undersize. I once rejected an old Jeep crank because it was .030" on the rods and mains. My machinists response, "Go back and get it, it's just a baby."

Bob
tufcj

[Mudrat]

Remember that a .010" undersize is a total measurement. To go .010" under, they only take .005" off the surface. If you're seeing .003" smaller already, scratches are probably deep enough that it won't clean up at .010". Bearings are made all the way to .030", and you can get respectable life out of it in every use except all-out racing.
Good point on the size thing Bob. Fatal error assuming something ](*,)

And who say's size doesn't matter? :-|