401 Build

[donwag]

Big thanks to this forum. My first AMC build. Learned a lot here.

401 - 30 over
Bullltear nickel plated timing cover/blueprinted oil pump
Decked, align bored and balanced
10/10 crank, resized rods, all ARP bolts
Cast stock style pistons
CC XE256
Edelbrock heads (ported and polished) w/ roller tip rockers
Edelbrock dual plane (heads and intake port matched)
Edelbrock TES headers
Holly Truck Avenger
MSD ProBillet and 6AL


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/AMC401006Small.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/AMC401002Small.jpg

[jeepsr4ever]

:? looking awesome

[pyagid]

that thing looks great. I could PM you my shipping address if you would like

-Paul

[fuzz401]

looks good :t:

[rollen dean montoya]

its perdyful :lo1l: :razz:

[donwag]

I am hoping it runs as good as it looks. We are going to run it in on a dyno so we will have some pretty good data soon.

Thanks.

[tarior]

Nice :lo1l:

[amcjeepman]

Question, why would you do such a nice motor and not put in the '71 style higher compression pistons ? L2380 I think.

[donwag]

Wanted to keep the compression around 9 to 9.5 for a daily driver on pump gas. On the Destop Dyno it still shows 350+ hp and 450+ torque. That was my target. Should do it fine with the stock pistions. The Edelbrock heads raised the compression ratio some as they have 54cc chambers.

[Goose]

Ok now I wish I had painted mine that snazzy turqoise color instead of red..Spiffy looking , Almost too spiffy lookin to get dirty..Almost!!

[amcjeepman]

What is it, .1 compression point per cc reduction in head volume roughly.
Should put you around 8.8-8.9 to 1 ?
Thats with stock style .045 thick head gaskets?
How much did you deck the block ? "Zero Deck"?

[donwag]

James - I take it in your opinion I made a mistake using the stock style pistons.

I don't think so. This is a truck motor for a full size Wagoneer. If I was building for a light weight car, I may have used different pistons. Very soon I will have actual dyno data and if I meet my targets I will be happy.

You are entitled to your opinion. Thank you for your input.

[rollen dean montoya]

its a good build. each of us have different ideas. it is all up to the owner.
keep us posted . will be interesting to see the results.

[amcjeepman]

Don,
Truely that was not my intention. Iformation about various combinations of AMC is, as you know, not as common as for say an SBC.
I am honestly interested in how you came up with your combination and also how much compression you will have.
In the past I have built several Big Block Chevy's, and I had a good idea to get what I wanted, plus there is a wealth of information available about them. All of the AMC's I have built have been basically stock, with only a cam or intake change.
I currently am doing a 360 for my J20 to tow with and am looking at options.
I also have a 401 I want to build, and am trying to decide exactly what I want.
Thanks for sharing, I support anyone doing AMC/Jeeps.
I'm trying to keep 5 of them going myself.
Again, sorry if I came across like an ass, I just don't mind asking a lot of questions.

[donwag]

Okay – here is some fun stuff to consider. If you are not a data junkie, just enjoy the pictures. Caveat – I play with cars a hobby, I am not a professional.

This motor is for a daily driver truck that weighs over two tons. A Jeep Grand Wagoneer with a 727 automatic transmission, 3:31 rear gears, and 30” tires. Don’t want to race anyone, just want something better than stock. So the plan was to build for lots of low-end torque, avoid any drivability issues and run on pump gas. Probably never going to go over and will seldom reach 5,000 rpm’s. Taking advice of the pros, emphasis was placed on induction, exhaust, cam, and valve train. Except for the lifter valley oiling mod the bottom end was left pretty much stock after being balanced.

If you look closely you can see where we machined the lifter valley to lay the fabbed up oil line in very low. Tried to use a pre-made kit, just did not like it, too high in the lifter valley.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/Valleyoilline.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/Valleyandheads.jpg

Also notice we cleaned up the intake ports. As received from Edelbrock, they were rough machine cut with ridges. We smoothed them out and port matched them with the intake manifold. In my experience with other engines, this step alone can gain 20-40 horsepower.

Here is a DeskTop Dyno comparison of stock and the plan. All specs in these calculations are conservative and I expect actual Dyno results to be better.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/AMCComparisonMedium.jpg

James wants to know why I did not use the ’71 style 9.5 compression ratio pistons. Sure higher compression increases horsepower. It also creates some drivability issues, namely, detonation and a need for higher octane gas. Not issues you want to deal with in a daily driver. Back in ‘68, I had a ’55 Chevy with a 327 running 10:1 compression ratio with the old Rochester mechanical fuel injection. Ran in high 11’s at over 110 mph in the ¼ mile track. We also had leaded fuel and my driving habits were a little different. Friday nite was race nite in those days and we smoked-em up. Now Friday nite is cruise-in nite and we mostly just show and tell.

I actually considered having custom pistons made. But for the intended use, just did not need that kind of overkill. Could have used the 9.5 pistons but with the smaller combustion chamber heads, I was afraid we would boost the compression too high for the daily driver use. If this was a mistake, we will know next time. Why the Edelbrock heads? Just because they are there, they are new stuff, and sure look nice. The stock heads can be made to flow very good.

I am not really certain of the dish volume of the stock replacement piston for the 401. I used Sealed Power STE415CP, 30 over. Something to consider - I believe suppliers of replacement pistons design them to be a little less compression than the factory spec. Probably to reduce the chance of detonation as most are used in stock applications and increased performance is not an issue. I am told the replacement pistons have a 43cc dish volume. Should have measured it myself, but I didn’t.

Here is a CR calculation using the factory specs. The piston dish volume is calculated using all the other known items (specs from Performance American Style, 1972)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/AMC401StkCR.jpg


With this information I am guessing the static compression ratio in this build is likely 8.75 to 9. Stock 8.5, some loss on replacement pistons, some gain on smaller combustion chamber with the Edelbrock heads.

Bottom line is this build increases torque and horsepower by making it flow better than stock and using a cam appropriate for the power range and higher compression is not needed to get there.

[jeepsr4ever]

Your closer to 9.0 and maybe a tad under. Nice work on the valley for the oil line! Let me know how she shakes down ok?

[amcjeepman]

Cool, now I am really anxious to see the Dyno results.
BTW what are tha specs for the cam? I looked on Comp Cams site but could not bring up one for the AMC.

[donwag]

Cam specs for James

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/XE256Custom2.jpg

[donwag]

Dyno results are finally in.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/DonWaggonerAMC1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/Dynopull.jpg

Did not quite make my torque target of 450. Check out the oil pressure - thanks to MC for the blueprinted timing cover/oil pump.

[jeepsr4ever]

You could have done some fine tuning that may have gotten more hp. I miss the dyno's. Nice looking setup Don!!!!

[jeepsr4ever]

Scratch that....wow thats alot of power at 3600rpm!!!!!

[tarior]

400lb/ft at 2000, whoa!@!

[jeepsr4ever]

That is so awesome I had to show the old lady...she said wow

[giz]

I also am one of thouse that fell comp is over-rated the higest oct gas we have is is 91 not the 93 it seems most everybody else can buy I had my pistons custom made at 9.2/1 I can drive to the 1/4 track on pump gas ,race on pump gas ,and drive home since the nearest track is only 185 miles away this helps. I am happy with the performance running 12.6-12.76 with a 3450 lb car with ps,pb,ac with a average air density of 5800-7800 ft no pinging ,no compression bucking and I burn 87 oct gas

Giz

[AMX69PHATTY]

May I ask what program that is in the screenshot used to calculate compression ratios ?

Motor looks cool, and the dyno numbers are great

:t:

[amcjeepman]

I've been waiting for these, man that some great torque nombers. Congrats.
Have you run it any in the wag ?

[donwag]

The screenshots are from Comp Cams DynoSim software.

[Mudrat]

Great numbers - let us know how it acts ON THE ROAD!!! 'Cause we know that nothing beats a seat of the pants evaluation!! :lo1l:

[jeepsr4ever]

btt

[Mudrat]

BUMP again

What were the results??

[donwag]

Don't have it on the road yet. I am in no hurry. Let you know when I do. One thing leads to another. Engine is in. Doing some new wiring, electric fuel pump, Lokar throttle and kick down cables, custom aluminium rad, all new AC components. Does it ever end?

Maybe I can get a four wheel drive burnout pic in Car Craft!

[Mudrat]

Does it ever end?
NO!! Been working on mine for far too long too - but then again, I haven't been home that much in the last 5 years :oops:

[82Waggy]

Hello donwag,

Do you happen to recall where you set the intake centerline on your cam? My build is similar so I am curious.

[donwag]

Well it is in. Took me a while to get tranny, fuel, wiring, throttle and kckdown, etc. up to standard.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/donwag/Nov2006180.jpg

Damn! This puppy hauls! And it is a two ton truck.

[donwag]

82 Waggy - we set the cam to Comp Cam's recommendations, see page 2, the cam specs are posted.

[donwag]

Just a small note. The idle is just a little rough, you know, lopey, lopey. Dosen't bother me, but I thought others would llike to know. Still plenty of vacuum at idle for all the accessories. Heater switches, 4WD actuator, power brakes, etc.

Also of note, I really like the Holley Truck Avenger's vacuum connections. They provide for anything you would need right off the carb base. Plugged all the manifold holes and made a much neater installation.

[Mudrat]

Looking pretty sweet there DONWAG!!! 8)

I guess I need to get some pics of mine installed in a CJ :? I like your fuel line & pressure gauge, really don't know where I want to mount mine yet. I've got the 1406 carb with the fuel inlet on the right rear (via hard pipe), I was thinking just under or around the throttle cable mount??

[donwag]

Mudrat - I have a CJ7 too. On it I ran the fuel line from the tank to the right side with an electric fuel pump on the frame, then up under the battery to the Edelbrock 1406.

[Mudrat]

Mudrat - I have a CJ7 too. On it I ran the fuel line from the tank to the right side with an electric fuel pump on the frame, then up under the battery to the Edelbrock 1406.
I've got a new Carter mechanical on mine, which of course is on the drivers side. I was thinking of going to the braided line behind the PS pump along the valve cover to the fire wall, mounting the press gauge then around to the carb.

But I have to tell ya, after 5 years, it was just good (F*&^ING GREAT!!!) to hear the beast turn over under it's own power!!!! I should be "home" for a few months so I'm really hoping to get finished by Thanksgiving, but it won't be broke-in before hunting season :oops:

Next year :t: :!:

[donwag]

Nothing like hearing it run! HooYaa!

[Mudrat]

Scared the crap outta me the first time!!! I "guessed" at the timing from TDC and as soon as I turned the key (after dumping some gas in the carb) it broke lose at a high idle - straight pipes no muflers. Now I can't get enough of it :lo1l: :lo1l: :lo1l: :lo1l: :t:

Guess at some point I'll have to muffle it :smile: But HOT DAMN that was a great feeling!!! :?

[donwag]

One last comment. The engine now has about 200 miles on it. NO LEAKS!!!

Put a new tranny seal in when the engine was out. I bet I have one of a very few Grand Wagoneers with no fluid leaks.

Time for the new garage floor I have been wanting. :!:

[runnamuck]

One last comment. The engine now has about 200 miles on it. NO LEAKS!!!

Put a new tranny seal in when the engine was out. I bet I have one of a very few Grand Wagoneers with no fluid leaks.

Time for the new garage floor I have been wanting. :!:

a non-leaking jeep, blasphemy.

:mrgreen: cool deal man.

[Goose]

Man that Jeep is holding it in!!.. you better park it in the dirt for a day before it busts.!!

[46flattie]

Don,
Very nice writeup on your 401 build. It's was nice to see the real results of your build (dyno data, etc.) I'm very interested in how your drivability is in the waggy and your satisfaction with your cam choice. I am building a new 401 for my CJ-8 and am considering running the cam you have. I previously have run the Edelbrock Performer 2132 and would like a little more cam w/o losing the low end grunt and throttle response. The only basic differences in my build plans are to run the stock 58 cc heads and likely run the TRW L2308 forged pistons. Your latest feedback would be appreciated. Oh yeah....how much vacuum do you have at idle?

Thanks,
Scott

[donwag]

Thanks.

When I tuned the carb I had 15Hg at idle. I think it has pretty good street manners. Seat of the pants power is at least double.

[46flattie]

Thanks.

When I tuned the carb I had 15Hg at idle. I think it has pretty good street manners. Seat of the pants power is at least double.

Thanks for the feedback.