PDA

View Full Version : Jumpy vaccume guage


Bulltear Ad
Bulltear Ad

JeepsAndGuns
04-04-2006, 08:14 PM
Well I think I am haveing a problem with my 401. For as long as I can remember (since I built this engine that is) I have had a jumpy vaccume reading on it. no matter what I do I can not get a even reading at idle. I checked it yesterday agan and the needle jumps really ast really viloenty from nearly one side of the guage to the other. I can rev it up and it will straighten out. I am haveing some running issues the past couple days (think its carb related/ un related to the vaccume problem) but I finally broke down a did a compression test today. This is what I found:

1. 180
2. 160
3. 160
4. 175
5. 175
6. 180
7. 175
8. 180

All the plug seem to be uniformly colored except for #8 with was slightly darker than the rest. And from looking at the plugs it appears I am running slightly rich (but I can fix that) #'s 2 and 3 have me worried, is that too mutch of a diffrence? If these cylinders were side by side I would suspect the head gasket being faulty. but these are on opposite sides of the engine. Could it be valves? How do you test to see if its the valves being burnt or whatever?

I also want to add in a couple more long questions if its not too mutch for one post.

Here in the past month or so I have been haveing a intermittent no start problem. It seems to only do this after sitting for a while (sometimes a week, sometimes over night, sometimes in the afternoon after sitting all day) there seems to be no pattern or anything to when it does it, except for it only seems to do it cold, it is usally always fine after starting. But what it does, I will crank it and crank it and it will not start, BUT when I let off the key from cranking it, it will kinda chug or sputter. Best way I can discribe it would be "dieseling" It takes for ever to start, it will diesel every time after letting off the key when it is haveing its no start fit, and usally backfires real lightly through the carb. Evenutally after cranking it long enough it will start up like nothing happend, no spittering or sputtering to life, it just starts perfectly. A couple time it backfired when it finally started but thats probably from the un burnt air fuel mixture in the exhaust. I have had a few suggestions on what it might be. The only thing I have replaced so far the the electric ignition switch on the base of the steering collumn. I thought that was the problem because it never done it agan for a couple weeks. but this past weekend it done it to me twice agan. Suggestions I have been told are coil, dist pickup, and solonoid. I hate just spending money replaceing parts that "might" be bad, I prefer to find out exactly what the problem is and replace just that part.


My last and final question for the night. Just starting sat night it is running funny. It did its no start thing. (it sat since the weekend before like it always does) but when driveing it I noticed it didnt want to accelerate right. It felt like it was hesatateing or stumbleing. It didnt spitter or sputter or miss or anything like that while doing it, it just did go right when I hit the gas. It also seemed to slightly surge while driveing constant. But it is a verry slight surge, almost like a split second miss. I got it out yesterday and messed around with it. I drove it and the miss or surge wasnt there, but the hesatation was. The hesatation is ther almost through all the accelaration unless I hit the gas and it will kinda go away upward of 2500 rpm. I hooked a vaccume pump the the vac advance to check it and watched to make sure it moved. I could pump it and it would take a fair ammount to make it move, but it did move, but would instantly go back down. I started the engine and left the vac pump on the advance, I pumped it and the idle went up somelike it should and it didnt leak back down, it stayed put untill I released the pressure. Dont know if thats the way it supposed to be or not. I checked the vac port on the carb and it was working like it should. No vac at idle, only when reved. But I didnt put the guage on it, just used my finger. I am wondering if the backfireing through the carb might not have blow out the power valve. (I thought the holley truck avenger carbs had a guard to keep this from happening) but I still dont know exactly what a pv is and what it does when it goes out. But somebody told me a way to test it is to take your finger and cap off the bowl vant tubes, it the engine stalles its bad. I tried that and it keps running fine, but dont know it that really proves anything. About that point I stoped, the only thing I done to it today was the compression check. And broke two spark plugs :(: getting them loose because they were tight as hell. So now I need to get two new plugs.


Can anybody HELP, all this crap seems to be happening at once and it starting to overwhelm me/ drive me nuts. I know my sig says I am gonna swap in a caddy 500, but I have to completely overhaul it first, and have a couple big projects in front of that, so I am gonna be keeping my 401 for atleast another couple years and I want it running right, HELP

youdidwhat
04-05-2006, 05:55 AM
thats alot of words :shock:

but I would start by looking for the vacume leek you have...

some of what you mentioned sounds like you may have compressed your carb gasket too much on one side when tightening it down.

wehile running spray the bottom of your carb with carb cleaner and listen for your engine to smooth out or rev up. if you get this happening you have a vacume leek in your carb/gasket.
do not forget to check the carb bolts to see if your monster has shook itself loose.

also check alll your vacume hoses for cracks.

as for your compression test, a more-so AMC minded chap needs to chime in as I do not know the alowable varanciances (or however you spell that word)

also (and this could have something to do with the compression)

I think you could have some carbon build up on your valves, with alll the funky misfires either your timing is off or you have carbon building heat in the cylinders.

hope this helps.

JeepsAndGuns
04-05-2006, 05:39 PM
Yep, I checked for vaccume leaks already. All vaccume hoses are new. The carb gaskets are new. I pulled the carb when I did the compression test so the engine could get full air flow, and it wouldnt be pulling air through the carb. I looked carefully at both the gaskets (I have a 1in thick spacer/insulator under the carb) both gaskets look perfect and I can see no defects in the spacer. When tightening down the carb I always use a cris cross tightening pattern going only a little at a time. I have also tried the carb cleaner test several times in the past with no luck. If it does have a vaccume leak it must be on the under side of the intake. One thing just poped into my head. The #8 plug was a little darker than all the rest, it had a slight (I would guess to be carbon) buildup on it that flacked off pretty easy. It was dry and not wet like oil would be. But do you think that could have any link to a possiable location for a vaccume leak?

Jared, <----Still needing lot of help :banghead:

youdidwhat
04-06-2006, 05:58 AM
But do you think that could have any link to a possiable location for a vaccume leak?

Jared, <----Still needing lot of help :banghead:

No that should not cause a vacume leak unless the vacume leak is due to a cracked gasket or carbon build up that will not allow your valves to close all the way, then you are looking at the pressure of the cylinder being pushed into the intake,thus causing back fires. or into other areas if cracked gasket, could cause other issues you mentioned as well.

how about the timming? 2* btdc
points and condencer? ( if you have them in that rig, are they set correctly?)
cap, roter,and plug wires?
any arcing, splits, burnning,?

sea foam will get that carbon (takes a few days of on/off driving)

Carbon on a plug usally means lots of carbon on the valves/cylinders

I would aim at the carbon issue first, but the only way I know to check for carbon build up on valves/cylinders is to pull the valve assembly, though you can see part of the top of the intake valves by pulling the intake manifold.

JeepsAndGuns
04-06-2006, 07:13 PM
Timing is set at 10* Its in a 79 so I used the stock ignition (motocrap) All is new, plug wires are accel. I have a jacobes ignition thing on it. It connects to your old coil and to the battery then to the dizzy. Its pretty old (say mabey 5-6 years) and I have had it on a couple diffrent engines. I put it on this one cause it gives a hotter spark and I had it laying around. I still have the stock coil that looks 100 years old. I am wondering if it and/or the jacobs thing could have anything to do with the starting issue. As old as the jacobs thing is, I am wondering about it. I think I am gonna get a TFI coil and put that on and toss the stock coil and jacobs thing and eleminate those from probable causes for the starting issue. I think I might go ahead and get a new solonoid too just for the heck of it. I hate replaceing things I am not 100% sure are bad, but I hate this cat and mouse crap finding the problem.

tarior
04-07-2006, 03:34 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about the compression from cyl to cyl as they are roughly within 10% of each other. You just need to start the process of elimination. Eliminate the easy problems first and work towards the the more PITA possibilities. I have had spark plug spontaneously stop working for no apparent reason. I have had a bad distributor cap give me fits for a week (Nissan not AMC). I have had the diaphragm in in the vacuum advance go bad, that one drove me nuts till I found it. Hard starting, hesitating, lack of power, hmmm....
good luck. :sa:

JeepsAndGuns
04-07-2006, 06:39 PM
I just eleminated a few more things. I stoped by the parts store and picked up s TFI coil and a new solonoid. I am gonna pull out the jacobs thing and just use the TFI coil. That eleminates the jacobs and the stock coil. I re-gaped the plugs and replaced the two that I broke when takeing them out for the compression test. They were in there tight as hell, I dont remember tightening them that mutch. But I was pulling on the rachet and click :(: I pulled it off and the glass part had broke right off. But i did all that and mounted the coil but had to stop because I dont know witch terminal on the TFI coil is + and witch one is - On my old coil it was marked, but on this one it is not. Well that gives me something to do tomorrow.

tufcj
04-07-2006, 08:40 PM
This is what I use.

http://www.centuryperformance.com/vacuum.asp

Bob
tufcj

JeepsAndGuns
04-08-2006, 08:48 PM
Vaccume timeing doesnt do me any good, that needle on the guage wont stop jumping all over the place.

Got the coil hooked up and got it running. It still wasnt accerateing like it should, kinda hesatateing. So I stop back by the parts store and pick up a new fuel filter, new cap a rotor (with brass terminals) and a new power valve. When I got the carb it had a 2.5 in it. I pulled it out and put in a 8.5 and have run that for a while, but with the backfireing its been doing through the carb when its on it starting thing I was wondering if it might not have gotten blown. With the carbon on some of the plugs I thought I might try a 6.5 and drop down the jets another size. I started out this morning by pouring some sea foam down the carb. I had to go to my friends house to help him move his dryer to the repar shop, so I picked up the parts on the way back and did the work over there. I put on the cap and rotor, pulled the carb and changed the pv and the jets. Put the new fuel filter on and fired it up. Vac guage still goes crazy, adjustment of the mixture screws have no effect on the guage, so I just adjusted them by ear. Took it for a drive and it seems to run better. The accel lag seems to have gotten better, but I am not sure its completely gone. Stayed over at my friends house for the rest of the afternoon. Started back to the house and all seemed ok. I got about a half a mile from my house and I think I could feel a slight miss while goingup the last slight hill near my house. When I got to the house and let it idle it does almost sound like I have a miss. It has always had a kinda blopy idle, but tonight it seems to be more blopy than normal. I reved it up steady a little bit and it still kinda sounds like a miss. Buts its almost 10:00 here and I am tired of screwing with it. :banghead:

tarior
04-09-2006, 02:48 AM
Has that motor ever been apart? If so, check your rockers. Be sure that they are adjusted properly.

JeepsAndGuns
04-09-2006, 07:47 AM
The engine was rebuilt last fall. It probably has a few thousand miles on it. All the push rods and rocker arms/piviots/bridges were replaced. If one were loose, wouldnt it be makeing noise? Like a tapping comeing from the valve cover area? There are no tapping or any other noises comeing from it.

Henry Lavrenz
04-09-2006, 08:09 AM
To answer one of your first questions, compression should be checked dry and wet. Wet is placing some oil in the cylinder to to help the rings seal. Get the piston down in the bore and spray some light oil in it, let it settle down on the piston for a minute and then run a compression test. If the comp. comes up to be equal to the highest cyl. reading, you most likely have a valve sealing problem. Jumping vac guage readings are most likely intake valve sealing problems, because when the piston comes up to the compression stroke it will push air past the leaking intake valve and cancel out the low pressure in the intake manifold and the same will happen when the cylinder fires - a portion of the power stroke will go into the intake manifold. I would try the easy fixes first, change the engine oil and use two quarts of ATF or MMO to loosen any sticking lifters or valves, give it about a hour of running and see if it helps - I and many other peaple have run ATF with oil changes and it gives good results in cleaning the insides of a engine. To find the bad valves, kill the cylinders one at a time untill you find a reduction in the jumping on the vac. guage and then remove that spark plug and restart the engine - you should notice a further reduction. Of course stay with your first plan and do a good tune-up and replace that power valve. Best of luck, Hankrod


edit: I ment t say if compression comes up on a wet test you have a ring problem. If it dosn't go up you have a valve problem, Hankrod

tarior
04-09-2006, 12:54 PM
I wasn't talking about one being loose, but overtightened. I've seen it happen.

JeepsAndGuns
04-09-2006, 07:40 PM
Well drove it to wal mart and back this morning. Was still idleing blopy. So I got out the timing light and re checked the timeing and it was still holding at 10*. Started unhooking spark plug wires at the dist cap. Kept shocking the PI$$ out of my hands, so I got peeved and stoped doing that. Could tell a little diffrence when one was uh hooked, but not mutch. So I broke out some carb cleaner and sprayed some down the carb real good to clean it out. I then decided to start with the mixture screws agan, adjusted them out another 1/4 turn, no change. Couldnt remember how many turns out the were so I started turning them back in (while engine was running) and I got italmost down and it smoothed out pretty good. Went on the seated and it almost died, turned it back out 1/2 a turn, repeated on the other side and it now seems like it idles pretty good. It smooted out a good bit and no longer feels like it has a miss. :-| So I left it at that. Guage still jumps all over the place. But drove it around some more today (to a friends house and back) and it seems to run pretty normal now. I still dont know if it absoultely 100% like it should, but I think its good enough for now.

I have wondered if I had a valve problem or not. I have a extra set of heads I am thinking about takeing to a diffrent shop (diffrent from the one I had do the current machiene work) and have them rebuild them and then slap them on. You think the valve problems could be the two cylinders that have 160 psi?

youdidwhat
04-10-2006, 05:41 AM
. You think the valve problems could be the two cylinders that have 160 psi?


:-| could be.. I agree with the valve blowby theory. it explains the back fire as well, as jumpy vacume.. and pressure loss.

tufcj
04-10-2006, 07:00 AM
Like that link I posted says. A jumpy needle that steadies as RPM increases indicates worn valve guides.

If the heads were done during the rebuild, how much were they surfaced? Was there any surfacing of the block done? If a lot was taken off the heads, or heads and block (I'd say over .020"), you might want to shim up the rocker bridges about the same amount that was surfaced, or get some adjustable pushrods. Everything might just be too tight for the non-adjustable valve train.

Bob
tufcj

Henry Lavrenz
04-10-2006, 02:42 PM
What I ment by kill one cylinder at a time is to cancel out the spark. If you disconnect the plug wire, that spark may jump to another plug in the dist. cap and this can throw you off too. To cancel out a spark signal you should redirect it to the battery positive terminal, I use a 12-volt power tester. Clamp the ground to the batt. + and touch the tester tip on the plug wire terminal - either pull back the insulator cover or push it through the top if you have HEI type wires. This is a easy way to find what cylinder is weak. Good Luck, Hankrod

JeepsAndGuns
04-10-2006, 06:18 PM
Yes the heads were re done with the rebuild. I found the paper work that shows what they did and they put in new valve guides, did a standard valve job and surfaced them .007 They didnt take any off the block.

Bulltear Ad