Newb Question- WHAT DO I NEED??

[Bam Bam]

Sorry guys. Just way to overwhelmed with all this great info but....

Just picked up a 360, my 304 was chewin up distributor gears. I want to rebuild the 360 and I want it to work well.

I looked the E-store and I am SOOO CONFUSED

What the hell do I need to make this thing rock solid? I do want to put a in a cam that will friendly for wheeling and won't let me down.

Please let me know what I need.

[Goose]

Well welcome to the site.. Now before you get even more confusing info.. Tell us what you are putting the 360 in and what kind of wheeling/driving you do.. For instance is this your daily driver? and what kind of mods have you done to it..

(before you end up with a recipe for a nitro sucking fire breathing full race aluminum 9000 hp 14000 rpm motor..for your 3a..to idle over trails with :roll: )
(Sorry I'm kinda the resident wise guy) well one of em anyway. :?

[Bam Bam]

Thats ok, the wise guys usually know what they are talking about :wink:

Ok so I am running a 78 CJ7, AX-15, D300
for axles at this point I am running wide track 30 & Corp 20 (moser shafts) Locked with 4:56 gears on 35s

Planning on going full width 60 front and 14 bolt rear on 38s with 5:13s

This is not a daily driver, but not yet a trailer queen. I am not looking for a pile of horsepower that will twist a shaft. Just something that will run nicely in most situations with more torque in the lower end.

[Mudrat]

[quote="Bam Bam"]That’s ok, the wise guys usually know what they are talking about :wink: [quote]

Leaves me out then :wink: I dropped a 360 into an 85 CJ, T-5, Dana 300, and Dana 44's front and rear with lockers.

I doubt the AX15 will hold up if you "Goose" the heck out of it (http://www.floridajeepers.net/images/smiles/hello.gif Goose http://www.floridajeepers.net/images/smiles/ahhhhh.gif ). I know the T-5 won't, but I'll be "gentle" until I can find a 727 or equivilant to drop in behind it.

I haven't been home enough to get it finished, but there are some pic's in the readers ride section. I didn't go full blown, but had it bored +.30, cross-drilled and polished the crank after opening the oil ways, dropped a Summit 8600 cam, E-brock performer intake, and when I get it back from MC I have the E-brock 1406 carb to put back on. Desktop dyno has it around 400 HP.

'Rat

[Bam Bam]

i don't know man, I already cooked my T-5 behind my 304

I have been told the T-5 rates weaker than a Peugeot tranny

Sounds like a nice set-up tho

[Mudrat]

Yeah, I don't think it will last long either - but it's new :t:

Here (http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3971) are few shots of "Pat's Projects" :-|

[jeepsr4ever]

I would start with a mild RV camshaft to get things rolling. How many miles are on the motor right now?

[Bam Bam]

unfortunately the dash was out of the Waggy when I found it, and then it was sent to the crusher as soon as I pulled the engine, so I guess I will have to try to find out from the wreckers. But I really doubt I will have any luck.

[Goose]

Goo :? sed again...

[Holeshot]

Here we go again!!!

Mild "RV" camshaft????

That is what a stock cam was/is.

The AMC head design will rev to 6500 & supply over 450HP when fresh & without any significant mods!!! 8500RPM & over 600HP when fully prepped.

If you put little intakes, carbs, cams, exhaust, etc, on it, that's what kind of power you will get out of it.

I believe in COMPLIMENTING the engine design, not detracting from it.

The 360 will easily go 450 HP & burst to 7500 RPM with common hot rodding mods. 6500 RPM is safer for the cast rods but modifying aftermarket forged SBC rods to use with the 360 is common & the 390/401 forged crank can also be used.

It just depends on what powerband you want, higher HP is at the higher end of the RPM scale.

[Goose]

Umm ok I'll bite, What exactly is wrong with the stock cam for wheeling?..
he wants to wheel it ..which doesnt work well with it lumpty lumping all over the place.. and where in hell would you use 7500 rpm in a trail rig? if the powerband doesnt "hit" until 2500 rpm then what good is it on the trail? you need power on the bottom 1000 rpm to 5500 it's easy enough to break ujoints, axles etc with out compounding the problem with having to rev the snot out of it and "Launch" over every obstacle. unless you want to run a stout automatic and high stall converter that kind of motor is useless off road.
I think the point you are missing here is there are two numbers.. torque and HP torque is what is wanted in a trail rig. and you dont get that with long duration big overlap cams.

Seriously, the tool for the job, you dont drive nails with a screwdriver

And finally it really isnt a sin to not build every engine to the utmost limits of durability and sanity..I will bet that for the most part with proper gearing and all other things being equal a 258 six would go places that a 500 horse lumpty lump couldnt (in the same vehicle).

Sorry for the rant and it's not personal..

[Bam Bam]

no man, Goose, I appreciate it. I am trying to learn here. I don't know much about engines, and i am trying to fix that.

So just to confirm, I would like the engine to idle low, but I also want low end torque. This is a trail rig and I really don't want to "launch" over anything if I can avoid it. Thats how I bend axles.

[Holeshot]

I knew that was coming!!!

Go ahead & de-tune it, use little bitty cam, intake, carb, exhaust, etc.

Hell, you could probably figure a way to use 1969 heads for even less power!!!!

You could then paint your front bumper yellow so everybody will know to put their rig in gear & get going again when they see that you have caught up.

Or, a 500+ ft/lb, 500+ HP 401 could be built that delivers over 400 ft/lbs at 2500 & over 500 ft/lbs from 3000 to 4500, redlining at 6500 or less. THAT is for ME!!! (& those are easy numbers from a mild build.

MORE IS MORE!!!

Some trails are WFO & 70MPH+++, some are a-put-a-put-a-put

Over and out (of this thread).

[Mudrat]

Bring your butt back here Holeshot. 8) You're not getting out of here that easy :?

What cam would you suggest for the situation? Since I'm about int he same boat - ocassional DD and weekend/hunting partner :wink:

Yes, we know HP comes from the upper bands, but bringing 4000-6000 Engine RPM down to a usable torque at rational wheel speeds for crawling would take several gear boxes to reduce it. My contraption only has about 50::1 right now.

I've built my 360 with the Summit 8600 (which may be a mistake), performer, Holly 4BBl, .030 over, .010/,010 ground, cross drilled and polished, peend stock rods, balanced, and oil modded.

Desktop Dyno has me right around 400 HP @5600 but the torque curve peaks between 3600 and 4000.

I haven't had it running yet - still in the rebuild cycle - so what should I have done differently to pick the HP and torque up?

[Goose]

Naahh Bam Bam you just happened to get caught in the eternal struggle me and holseshot seem to be in.. I am a low RPM torque fan and he is a high rpm horsepower fan..Although my Slow ass yellow bumpered 5800# J-10 on 33's will still run a 14 second vettes ass into the ground. (Nobody waits for me holeshot.. but when they get stuck It's me the "OLD GUY" that gets em out.) and usually they get in trouble running WFO 70 mph.. thats not a trail if you can do that.. most of us call that a highway. :wink:

So enough of that.. For a usuable motor at a reasonable price build it for low rpm grunt leave the bottom end STOCK (upgrade the oil system) and stay reasonable with the cam and carb..the performer is very little more than a stock cam (in this holeshot is right) but the stock 360 cam doesnt perform that badly, power on at about 800 rpm to 5000the torque curve is kinda flat and even. I use the Edelbrock torker manifold and a good ignition system (Mallory for me) along with a decent set of headers and exhaust system. besides I can brag and tell everyone it makes 500 hp cause nobody brings thier pocket dyno out in the woods anyway.

[Bam Bam]

Ya I can understand the little fights, I spend way too much time on jeepkings.ca and we bicker way too much in the winter since everyone is bored.

I do understand what Holeshot is saying, but keep in mind, even with my little 304 I had lots of torque, and I broke stuff if I goosed it.

I would like to add some horsepower, but I don't want to pumping out enough to take a vette in the quarter mile!

For engine mods (i guess you could call it that) I have (from the 304) an Edlebrock Alum Intake (not sure which one) Holley 4 Barrel 650, and Dynomax (I know they are shit headers, but thats all I have) with Purple Horney Side pipes. So no mufflers or cats on this sucker.

So I hope this helps the cam issue. What cam do I need?

And this oiling thing....

What do I need to do? Other then some oil pump thing and such. Sorry kinda dumb here. 111!!!

[Mudrat]

Bam Bam
Check the AMC Oiling Thread here ... http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=25 and if you thought you wanted info, prepare for saturation :? :shock:

For the cam question, that's open to lots of interpretation and MIS-interpretation. There is no “one answer”. John started a Cam Thread here .. http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4878&highlight=cam that may provide some help in sorting out the sordid world of bump-sticks. Again, you’ll find it’s a matter of deciding on what you want for performance, what you’re willing to spend, and which manufacturer do you trust. Some board members have had good luck with some brands and others have not with the same name. I’ve pretty much determined it’s a crap shoot. But the one MAJOR thing to do when you get your new stick is carefully inspect it and make sure the flashing is gone from the hole that is supposed to be there for the 304 and up motors.

'Rat

[Holeshot]

http://home.comcast.net/~dhoelcher/amc/post/360tq1.gif

[Holeshot]

http://home.comcast.net/~dhoelcher/amc/post/401tq.gif

[Holeshot]

http://home.comcast.net/~dhoelcher/amc/post/401rev.gif

[Mudrat]

Well your 360 torque comes on about the same time as mine, but is a bit higher than the Summit cam

Your 401 data is kick ass though! But comes on at ~4500 RPM :-|
4500/50 (gears) = 90 wheel rpm or with 35's is about 4.3MPH :!:

[Goose]

SO In reading your charts. it would seem we are saying the same thing..450 ft lbs at the bottom tapering to 5000 rpm at 9 to1 same cam and 10.2 comp with a few more cfm carb and still good numbers for wheeling.. 288 degree duration cam and suddenly the power band is much higher.. so why the argument.. thats what Im saying also

(Well ok I have said that more harm has come from gigantus carbs than too small.. and that is more owner/tuning than anything) :-|

[Holeshot]

Well Goose, the difference IS around 200HP more for the 401 that will rev!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Somebody needs to define some guidelines for the 4-wheelers, like crawlers - I get that one, but trail riggs need to have a couple of classifications so ppl know what the useage will be. Put-put trail, intermediate, wide-open trails, etc.

I suppose part of it would be where ya live, I know there are places out west where 100MPH would be seen at times, hence the 401 with 200 more HP than a crawler.

My real point is that the heads are designed to rev, with large ports & valves. My theory would be to COMPLIMENT THAT, not DETRACT from that by choking it down with little bitty intakes, carbs, cams, etc.

The crawlers should be using sixes anyway, let us HP guys that can use them have the diminishing supply of 390s & 401s.

[Bam Bam]

Ok so thats great that you posted those charts. but WTF do they mean to me?

Keep in mind I don't know sh*t about this, so you really only confused me more.

Ok, so I do Ontario wheelin. so that includes tight technical through forests and lots of natural rock formations, that could be dry or covered in dirt, moss and mud. The most speed you would ever see on a trail is 30 km/hr and that at the trail to the first obstacle.

Otherwise I am usually in 3rd in 4low chuggin along at a fast walk. But when I get to a obstacle and I need some momentum to carry me through it or I have to pull out a buddy, I would like to be able to goose it and have no questions whether I have the power to make it or not.

I do understand what you are saying about complimenting a setup, and I am all up with that thinking, but we are having a baby so my jeep budget was "removed" so I am not really working with much.

Yes, I would like to rebuild this motor and make sure I won't have any oiling issues that will ruin this one as well, but while I am at it I would like to add a little extra go power. On a limited budget of course.

I have seen quite a few little gadgets on the forum, like cam scrapers (i think thats what it was called) very cool, but do I really need it? Stuff like that.

I do appreciate all the help you guys are providing :lo1l:

[Mudrat]

I have seen quite a few little gadgets on the forum, like cam scrapers (i think thats what it was called) very cool, but do I really need it? Stuff like that.

I do appreciate all the help you guys are providing :lo1l:
Congrats on the New Jeeper :t:

And it's a crank scraper and NO you don't need it for what your doing. Oil mods are relatively inexpensive but will save lots of CDN Cash later on, and your engine will like you better for it too :mrgreen: If you're working with time and limited budget, plan it out and do a little at a time. That way you can get it all done right in 'baby steps' (sorry couldn't help myself :wink: ) and have a great running machine to take the toddler on the trails.

[Holeshot]

Sorry, Bam Bam.

All you need is a good rebuild, the stock cam will be fine if it is within spec & the lifters aren't cupped. If the lifters are cupped, the Comp 252H will be fine, or most any other "RV" type cam plus a double roller timing set. If you need a bore job, keep it as little as possible, use flat top pistons if possible, keeping the compression as close to 10~1 as practical. Try to get .045" clearance between the piston dome & the cylinder head at the tightest point. If you can get the combustion chambers opened up a bit, that would be great for flow & if you need to lower the compression to get to 10~1, having the heads "open-chambered" is THE way to lower the compression, while still maintaining the VERY important .045" PTHC. If you go much over .045", pinging will occur. I would suggest large-tube headers, a 3.5" (or whatever your collector dia. is) "H" pipe to connect both sides, free flowing quiet mufflers, & as large tailpipes that you can get bent up to fit, an AMC Rebel "Machine" or Edelbrock R4b (or any dual plane) intake, and I much prefer any Holley over the Edelbrock/Carter AFB/Performer, in at least 600CFM, with not much torque loss even up to 850CFM, vacuum secondaries are a saner choice for your purpose.

Basically a high performance rebuild with just a few perf parts will get you a stout 360, so long as you won't be revving too high.

As far as the oiling, just have the extra line added under the intake, make sure the timing gear parts & oil pump go together correctly, & you should be fine there.

I would think that some of the ACE crawlers here would have some info to share on adding baffles to the oil pan to keep the oil from running away from the pickup at extreme angles, common sense would indcate where to add some baffles to the stock pan. Adding to the quantity of oil in the engine should be helpful, like a dual external filter boss and an external cooler, maybe add four more quarts to the system.

Really don't need a bunch of trick stuff - the AM V8 is well designed.

[Goose]

Again I get where you are coming from Holeshot.. Truly I do, I raced an 11 second Gremlin for years..I know the Amc will really breathe and make boatloads of power. And I agree we need to determine the usage of the vehicle before giving advice.
.
and If you notice if somene asks how to make max power I don't say anything..it's obvious that you guys have pushed the AMC to higher levels than I .. but I have built a lot of 150,000 mile stump pulling torque motors.

So It's all good, different knowledge and experience.

[KJMac]

Ya I can understand the little fights, I spend way too much time on jeepkings.ca and we bicker way too much in the winter since everyone is bored.

I do understand what Holeshot is saying, but keep in mind, even with my little 304 I had lots of torque, and I broke stuff if I goosed it.

I would like to add some horsepower, but I don't want to pumping out enough to take a vette in the quarter mile!

For engine mods (i guess you could call it that) I have (from the 304) an Edlebrock Alum Intake (not sure which one) Holley 4 Barrel 650, and Dynomax (I know they are shit headers, but thats all I have) with Purple Horney Side pipes. So no mufflers or cats on this sucker.
If you want more power then junk the purple hornies! The inside diameter is about 2 inches. My input would be to go with a good Cam from a well known manufacturer! The summit cam has far too wide of lobe seperation and they are cheap products. A cam can easily make or break an engine.
So I hope this helps the cam issue. What cam do I need?

And this oiling thing....

What do I need to do? Other then some oil pump thing and such. Sorry kinda dumb here. 111!!!

[Mudrat]

Bam Bam
Check the AMC Oiling Thread here ... http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=25 and if you thought you wanted info, prepare for saturation :? :shock:

For the cam question, that's open to lots of interpretation and MIS-interpretation. There is no “one answer”. John started a Cam Thread here .. http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4878&highlight=cam that may provide some help in sorting out the sordid world of bump-sticks. Again, you’ll find it’s a matter of deciding on what you want for performance, what you’re willing to spend, and which manufacturer do you trust. Some board members have had good luck with some brands and others have not with the same name. I’ve pretty much determined it’s a crap shoot. But the one MAJOR thing to do when you get your new stick is carefully inspect it and make sure the flashing is gone from the hole that is supposed to be there for the 304 and up motors.

'Rat

[Bam Bam]

apparently I can get a discount through Keystone and they carry Edelbrock and Crane. I can't understand all the Crane numbers so I asked to have the Edelbrock Performance-Plus Cam Kit Part #2132 priced out.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/valvetrain/valvetrain_main.shtml

(unfortunately the spec page is a PDF)

Thoughts?

And would anyone know a compatiable Crane cam for this?

or how bout this one?
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Truck&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=AMERICAN%20MOTORS&Year=1987&Engine_Size=401%20C.I.&partNumber=863904&partType=camshaft

[82Waggy]

I'm with Goose for Jeep motors - Keep overlap low, watch out for late intake closing point, and if you are running at or near stock compression do not exceed 260 duration and get as much lift as the lifter diameter will accomodate. This will help build cylinder pressure, improve bottom end torque, and provide for a wide torque curve.

Check out Engel's 5052-H. Probably about as good a cam as you can buy off the shelf for a Jeep motor.

Need proof? Check out donwag's 401 dyno sheet in the general chat section of this forum. Made over 400lbsft torque from 2000 - 4400rpm with a 256 duration cam and only 9:1 compression. More duration would only have shortened the curve and raised the rpm point of peak torque.

I beleive the use of the higher lift Engle cam above would bumped the numbers up across the board and lengthened the rpm range a little more.

[Bam Bam]

I only have these 2 companies to work with

so help me out here

[82Waggy]

Hmm

Well, the Performer Plus duration is way too long for a low compression engine, and the intake closing point of the Crane H-260-2 is relatively late at 61 degrees ABDC which would likely drop cylinder pressure from stock. So, not sure what to tell you.

Why are you stuck with either of these two parts?

[Bam Bam]

I can get a deal through Keystone, and thats who they carry

[Bam Bam]

Check out Engel's 5052-H. Probably about as good a cam as you can buy off the shelf for a Jeep motor.

What is their website? Where can I find some info on these?

[82Waggy]

http://www.englecams.com/index.php

[Holeshot]

And don't forget, you can use 289/302/351W 1.7 rocker arms to accelerate the cam events, extend the DUR, and add to the lift. Not a bunch of performance here, but if you are buying rockers anyway, it could add a bit of oomph.

Sorry to say that I'm not all that impressed with 400 ft/lb torque numbers out of a "built" 401, they had 430 ft/lbs stock before the tree-huggers got them de-tuned!!!

THIS is what DOES impress me!!! I just can't imagine why this is not enough torque!!!

http://home.comcast.net/~dhoelcher/amc/post/401rev.gif

[82Waggy]

Can you say, Lumpety, Lumpety, Ping, Lumpety? #-o

[Goose]

well Really the only problem I see here is what I keep trying to 'splain...the graph doesn't even START until 2000 rpm..I want to see the bottom end..at 800 rpm you need enough to keep the truck moving without stalling in gear. (How many guys with a zillion hp have you seen stall on a obstacle then try to get restarted with the stupid pedal..up in smoke go the tires and the clutch and pop goes the ujoints..) finesse and skill not brute force and ignorance.. (ok the latter can be fun to watch unless the guy is in front of you).. It's all relative. IF you gave me a choice between 1100 hp at 7000 rpm or 450 ft lbs of torque at 800 rpm.. bet ya can't guess which one I want..in my jeep.. in a gremmy or something i'll take the other.

[82Waggy]

Dynamic compression of 9:1 on pump gas?

[Blown7]

It's all relative. IF you gave me a choice between 1100 hp at 7000 rpm or 450 ft lbs of torque at 800 rpm.. bet ya can't guess which one I want..in my jeep.. in a gremmy or something i'll take the other.

Why not both??
Jeff

[Holeshot]

Oh.....crawling ONLY again......I guess I just have FAST of the brain!!! Comes from the love of speed, I guess. I just LOVE to blow away the off-brands. Never did learn how to go slow, damn it.

I guess I don't understand why it is that you guys need so much torque for going less than 1 MPH.

My first vehicle was a tired '66 Scout, 4-cylinder, with a big plow. I could plow so much snow that it would spill over the top of the blade. Never got stuck & never had a problem pushing snow as far & high as needed, even in the BLIZZARD of '78!!! In Michigan, we had drifts of over six feet & snow pushed to 10+ feet high, in some cases. That thing wouldn't even spin the tires in snow!!!

No need for big numbers. Probably was around 80 HP & 100 ft/lbs of torque, eh?

Amazing what gearing does for torque multiplication, is it not?

[Holeshot]

Is this thread strictly about rock crawlers?

It would seem to me that the above dyno example would be super for everything BUT crawlers.

What is the hot tranny setup for crawlers. Seems to be stick, since people are talking about driving at 800 RPM.

The dyno software does not chart below 2000 RPM, but I would have to say that if you have nearly 400 ft/lbs of tq at 2000 RPM, it would not be that much less at 1000 RPM. If you were using automatic trans, you would just be getting stall when the torque comes on like gangbusters. The 1100 CFM carb could be traded down for an 850 with very little HP reduction.

My dad was a lifelong certified master mechanic, working for Hudson, Nash, Rambler, AMC, then starting his own shop. I started there at 11 or 12, was THE first freshman at my high school (600 students) to EVER be promoted to AutoII, went to college for Auto Mechanics (#1 in my class), became certified as a Master Mechanic in Auto Repair + Auto Tune and Performance, then switched to motorcycles in time for the multi-valved DOHCs, becoming a certified Honda & Suzuki mechanic for 5~10 years & Service Manager for around the next 15~20 years, with a job as Hovercraft R&D + flight instructor training squeezed in between, & a Computer Programming degree in my spare time. I was taught that putting a load on an engine with standard trans at idle & just above, would hammer (destroy) the bearings, which makes a bunch of sense, since you would only be having 10 psi or less of oil pressure (at the pump!!!)

Seems like the hot setup for crawling would be an auto trans modified to not roll backwards when the throttle was lifted.

[82Waggy]

Holeshot,

Have you actually run the engine shown in your sim? I'd be curious to see what it does in reality.

The problem with most if not all of those sims is that they do not predict detonation, induction flow problems, or scavenging circumstances very well.

With such big valve overlap, huge carb, open plenum intake, and excessive dynamic compression trying to run on pump gas, I'd be surprised if it idled reliably below 900-1000rpm and would predict that the actual torque curve would be much more narrow and much lower output than indicated at the bottom end. In fact, I would predict that power would be almost unusable below 3000rpm and that it would need a 3500 or higher stall converter if an auto tranny was used.

Having said all that, it may be just fine at the strip if launching at high RPM - assuming it would not ping itself to death with that dynamic compression ratio of 9:1 or more. DCR of less than 8:1 is generally considered the limit for gasoline.

[Holeshot]

Please investigate Dyno2000, it is well agreed upon that it is within 10% of real dyno results.

As far as CR goes, the AM design is very much detonation safe and can be run up to 11.5 on pump gas, when built correctly!!! Search "Norm Brandes AMC"

As far as the "huge carb" theory, I have run 1320 CFM (2x660 CFM) on top af my UltraRam on the street quite a bit and it was WAY more responsive than the Torker/850DP combination on my 390!!! Left the line like a stocker. The AM engines are way power friendly and an 850DP can be considered minimal on 360 & up engines with bolt-ons. Even AMC sold Holley 950 three-bbls (no dinky carbs offered) to go on the Edelbrock R4Bs they sold!!!

Sometimes experience trumps theory.

Besides that, this thread was on an engine design for "wheeling", not "crawling". I know of a lot of trails around Michigan where the 572 guys with 2x4s blow the windshields out of the Jeeps with meek 360s. There's plenty of wide open places where they can get several cars wide & pile mud, rocks & gravel upon the loser's hoods!!!

[Goose]

Nahh fast is fine.. but the part you dont get is..what you just explained about the old scout.. or a flat fender.. If I dont need to spend 5 grand on a n engine..why would I?? 'I am not just a crawler.. but I dont do the mud drags either.. and all of my Jeeps are 200,000 mile plus daily drivers..If a guy is following you with a four banger powered yj and going where you go.. which is better? the answer? neither.. different strokes for different folks. A friend I wheel with has an engine and philosphy much as you do.. the problem? he has a very fast street jeep...STREET Jeep?? yep.. off road it's a P.O.S. over carbbed over cammed every single time we go out..it;s him we are waiting for, cause everytime we have to go up something steep or out on a shelf it loads up and stalls.. at 9500' above sea level..then its loaded up and flooded and a pain to start.. his high stall converter over heats the tranny cause it never locks up and watching him try to finesse something technical? It's sad.. he has great wheelspeed but dick for traction. I can idle over stuff he cant get through at full throttle..

But really the problem here is this.. a guy posts "I am a newbie I want to build my jeep a little but I still gotta drive it to work and raise a family" and you start telling the guy how to build 600 hp and dump 5 grand in a motor thats gonna get 4 mpg and not start when the weather goes bad.. thats not what the guy asked for.. or wants and thats how come you me an waggy spend so much time talking about this.. Dude I am sure you could out build me anyday of the week.. but that isnt the point.. :wink:

[Creepycj5]

I use my jeep just like bam bam and also building a 360.

What you want is to be able to have the clutch fully out and have enough power to climp over logs, rocks half the size of the tires, etc, and not have the engine dropping rpms and loosing power. You also want to be able to do all that at idle speed or alittle above so you arent bouncing all over and also breaking or bending parts.

Low gears will do this with any engine, but it is nice to have an engine built for that rpm range. From reading this post, I also think the high hp engine would be terrible. The gas consumption, reliability, and over all unused power.

Im looking at dropping in a cam alittle bigger than stock, xe256h or an engle cam, 5054. Also thinking about using the stock cam.

If you want to save your money, and the stock cam is still within spec, I would just use that cam. I have a friend using a stock cam in a 360 for wheeling and it does great and has more than enough power on the trail, and quite a bit on the street for a jeep as well. Its works well enough I am also considering keeping the stock cam.

[82Waggy]

Sorry Holeshot, but Desktop Dyno is not going to accurately model three dimensional fluid dynamics for 79.95. It MAY be within 10% in cases where valve overlap and such are somewhat "normal", but there is no way it can accurately predict scavenging, exhaust backpressure, or how much cross feed of exhaust and induction dilution you are getting between cylinders every 90 degrees with an open plenum manifold. At best it will allow you to see trends between different conditions but it is up to you to decide if what you have input is realistic.

For that matter, running on a real dyno may yield very misleading results when you place your large overlap cammed engine into a street vehicle with a muffler and wonder where all that recorded power went now that you have some exhaust backpressure to fowl up everything.

AMC's detonation resistant? Plenty of stock CR AMC's pinging around to disprove that idea. What is it about an AMC that would make it detonation resistant compared to other makes? AMC's have some of the worst quench and piston head styles there are in stock form. As goose said, put that high CR engine under a load when climbing a hill and see what happens.

If there is one place to improve on an AMC, it is quench.

[Holeshot]

The pinging AMCs are caused by WAY over .045" PTHC. And, yes, AMC pistons suck!!! That's why I ALWAYS say to get forged flattops!!! You SHOULD have known that by now!!!

[82Waggy]

Yes Holeshot.

Custom JE pistons in my zero deck 390. KB 354's in my 401. .043 to .045 quench and dynamic compression ratios below 8:1 in both.

[Bam Bam]

ok, so hopefully you guys have the high horsepower crap out of your systems now...

So what I am looking for a little extra over stock, I now have the engine stripped down to the rolling assembly, and I don't have a lot of cash to work with here.

I really just want to have a reliable engine. I don't think I could afford to have the block bored out with new pistons. But it would be nice to maybe change the rings and whatever else to extend the life of the engine.

Now back to the main topic of my thread....


WHAT DO I NEED????

I see all this oiling issue conversations and thats great, OK so I need to fix that, so I buy the timing cover from the Bulltear store, and a newer better oil pump as well?

And I have to drill some holes??? Where??

I've been told on here that Carter makes a high performance fuel pump (I started another thread on fuel pumps too)

When I found this 360 it came with an auto tranny, so I guess I will need another fly wheel, will the one off my 304 fit??


Sorry I keep bugging you guys, but the high horsepower on an offroad CJ but it ain't gonna happen.

[82Waggy]

You don't need to drill any holes or make any internal oiling system mods so long as you ensure your pump is in good shape. The best oiling related mod you can do aside from that is to increase pan capacity for better feed in unusual attitudes.

Since you are sticking with the original stock pistons, re-ring with iron (not molly) and put in an Engle 5052-H cam with new springs and lifters and be done with it.

If you are not going to have the crank re-ground or polished, at least check journal size to see if going to .001 oversize bearings would be of benefit. Don't rule out regrinding the crank if it is way out of round or worn below spec - loose bearings is the first thing to cause low oil pressure. ACL makes full groove main bearings for better rod journal oiling that may be of benefit. CAREFULL not to nick the crank during piston removal/installation.

See if you can find an .028 thick head gasket to match the .012 stock deck clearance to get a better quench.

Put it together and go.

Can't specifically help you with the 304 pressure plate question but I would guess it is not balanced properly for the 360.

[82Waggy]

Oh,

AND CLEAN THE CRAP OUT OF THE BLOCK!!!

:!:

[Bam Bam]

yup, doin that too

[SHARPMACHINE]

You don't need to drill any holes or make any internal oiling system mods so long as you ensure your pump is in good shape. The best oiling related mod you can do aside from that is to increase pan capacity for better feed in unusual attitudes.

Since you are sticking with the original stock pistons, re-ring with iron (not molly) and put in an Engle 5052-H cam with new springs and lifters and be done with it.

If you are not going to have the crank re-ground or polished, at least check journal size to see if going to .001 oversize bearings would be of benefit. Don't rule out regrinding the crank if it is way out of round or worn below spec - loose bearings is the first thing to cause low oil pressure. ACL makes full groove main bearings for better rod journal oiling that may be of benefit. CAREFULL not to nick the crank during piston removal/installation.

See if you can find an .028 thick head gasket to match the .012 stock deck clearance to get a better quench.

Put it together and go.

Can't specifically help you with the 304 pressure plate question but I would guess it is not balanced properly for the 360.


Good post! I am new to amc v-8's as well and this thread helps explain alot to an offroader.

I just got a 360 out of an 86 grand wagoneer. It ran good and I am trying to figure out if I should do anything to it before I put it in the yj? I am going to start my own thread for the questions.

thanks

[Goose]

Bam Bam, If it's not too late..
Do a good rebuild on it.. (I would replace cam bearings) and do the front cover/oil pump deal with a stainless midplate from bulltear.. for power? I would go with the edelbrock performer cam and intake..it works pretty well. (I use a edel torker on my 360.. I can't tell ya why it works cause it shouldnt..) but the "Old school" 4 bbl carb intake and cam with a decent set of headers will make good power. down in the rpm range where you can use it. plus when it's 5 degrees outside it will still start.
and if ya have the bucks, go with Mallaory of msd ignition system (or davis if ya got a few bucks..
Clean it up build it clean and you wont have any bottom end woes

[Bam Bam]

cool thanks goose!