PDA

View Full Version : Block cut in half?


Bulltear Ad
Bulltear Ad

caveman
10-11-2006, 07:35 AM
Any chance of getting the pics of the block cut in half re-posted or if available could you email them? I'm still trying to figure out why I am not getting oil to my rockers. I pulled the intake and when I run the oil pump with a drill, the oil starts running into the lifter galley through the two holes in the front of the block (the two holes that are not supposed to be plugged). I thought these were for venting or something, not sure if oil is supposed to flow through these, or if a passage is blocked, forcing the oil up thru them.

82Waggy
10-11-2006, 10:15 AM
There are NO holes, or vents, in the oil feed path or the lifter galleries that should be open to the lifter valley.

If the plugs are missing at the front of the valley, you are not providing pressure to any of the lubrication points including ALL bearings and the valvetrain.

ironman_gq
10-11-2006, 02:43 PM
those holes should be plugged they are there to allow you to clean passages and for some oiling mods. get the right plugs they should just be a standard pipe plug and your problems should go away

caveman
10-11-2006, 03:15 PM
The two holes I am talking about don't have threads. They are just above the lifter valley floor or bottom or whatever its called. They are on either side of the hump in the middle where the oil mod line comes out. There are two plugs in the hump, but I don't think the holes I am talking about get plugs.
I have a 304 with the intake off, it has these holes with no plugs either.
The holes I am referring to can be seen in the 2nd picture of this post: http://bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=830&sid=38ed4b0ff45ded85aa2924beb5f14355

I apologize for doing it this way, but I don't have any way of getting a pic.

82Waggy
10-11-2006, 03:38 PM
Are you talking about the two holes that drain into the timing cover area from the valley?

82Waggy
10-11-2006, 03:44 PM
Rotate the engine (by hand) while you are priming to align each of the lifter feed holes with the gallery.

The oil you are seeing from the front valley drainback holes is probably splash coming from the timing gear feed paths.

To ensure that oil is actually flowing into the lifter galleries, pull one of those fron plugs and then run your pump. Don't forget to duck!

caveman
10-12-2006, 06:58 AM
Thanks for the feedback 82.
I hesitate to say that the two holes "drain into the timing cover area from the valley" as the engine slopes back, so I doubt anything would drain there, but yes I think we are talking about the same holes.
You also mentioned the oil I see coming through these holes may be "splash", but I would describe it as "gushing in" (possibly splash is the technical term rather than the descriptive). I turned the motor while running the drill/pump but I never got any oil thru any of the push rods (it seems it is all running into the drain holes in the valley). I replaced 2 of the lifter for a test, but I will try your suggestion to pull the front lifters and (remembering to duck) look for oil.
The one thing that puzzles me is the lack of pressure on the mechanical gauge. Oil is getting up the tube, and I did bleed it.
I read somewhere that there are 2 plugs into the block, behind the timing cover, which, if left out will cause 0 pressure. Not know ing what these are for or where they go, would having one of them out allow oil up into the the drain holes? Or if one was left out, where would the oil go?
I appreciate your bearing with me. Oiling has never been my strong suit, but I am trying to logically figure out what is happening in this motor.

82Waggy
10-12-2006, 07:22 AM
There is a plug at the front of each lifter gallery (right and left side), on the front face of the block under the timing cover, behind the cams' timing chain gear. These need to be in place - if not, they may be the source of the gush through the two valley drain holes that I think you are describing - oil would be deflecting back off the timing gear through these holes .

There are also two aft lifter galley plugs on the back face of the block that need to be there.

It would help a lot if you could post a picture of what you are describing.

82Waggy
10-12-2006, 07:26 AM
If the two front lifter galley plugs are left out, the oil will be gushing forward against the timing gear and down to the bottom of the timing cover into the pan. It may also splash back into the valley drain holes you are describing.

You will have no measurable oil pressure in the system if any of these plugs are missing.

Don't feel bad. You are not the first of many I have read about having this same problem.

caveman
10-12-2006, 08:16 AM
I will pull the timing cover when I get a chance.
If the plugs in the rear are out, I assume oil will run out into the bellhousing?

fuzz401
10-12-2006, 08:20 AM
the 2 plugs above the cam and below the 2 oil run off holes(sloted)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/fuzzcj7/IMG_0498.jpg

with cam gear on the plugs can be seen through the cam gear

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/fuzzcj7/IMG_0504.jpg

from the inside the drain holes

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/fuzzcj7/Picture007.jpg

caveman
10-12-2006, 09:10 AM
Hey, Thanks for the pics Fuzz. That helps a lot. :t:
The drain hole shot (from the inside) shows the holes I am talking about. When spinning the pump, the oil rushes into the lifter valley through them, which I take, not to be normal.
Looking at the pics of the front, thru the timing gear, I take it that without the 2 plugs, the oil runs out of them into the timing chain cavity which fills up and and in turn runs into the drain holes, flooding the lifter valley. hence no pressure and no oil up to the lifters.
That sound about right?

AMX69PHATTY
10-12-2006, 09:15 AM
Hey Fuzz401, is that a RollMaster Timing Set ?
I guess the Torrington Bearing doesn't starve the Dizzy Gear for Oil ?

Just for reference, I believe the the (6) 3/8 Pipe Plugs needed in the block are there to plug holes
that are used to give access to drill or ream the oil galley passages into the block during manufacture.

As they've said, they must be in place to seal up the oil galley passages to get pressure.
The stock pipe plugs have a square socket hole rather than a hex socket hole.
If a person wants the square socket hole 3/8 pipe plugs, they're hard to find,
but they are available from Au-Ve-Co, box of (10), Part # 16307, $5.95
It does sound like they've been left out of the front of the block.
They are usually taken out when they clean the block.
Be sure all (6) are installed, (2) front, (2) rear, (2) in valley at front wall on top.
Have heard of people using an EDM machine to put a very small hole
in the front ones to increase timing chain oiling.
There absence would explain not getting oil to the rockers, no pressure, and oil coming in the those front holes.

FuzzFace2
10-12-2006, 10:02 AM
I thought there where 7 plugs?
1 smaller plug behind one of the front plugs, can’t remember if it was the left one or right one? If I can only find where I put “BJ Builds an AMC” book as I believe that is where I saw about it.
But it does sound like the front plugs are missing!
Dave ----

fuzz401
10-12-2006, 10:14 AM
that could do it

82Waggy
10-12-2006, 01:33 PM
I thought there where 7 plugs?
1 smaller plug behind one of the front plugs, can’t remember if it was the left one or right one? If I can only find where I put “BJ Builds an AMC” book as I believe that is where I saw about it.
But it does sound like the front plugs are missing!
Dave ----

The plug behind the front gallery plug described in BJ's book is a restrictor for the left oil gallery - not a stock component.

caveman
10-14-2006, 12:51 PM
:!: Dind! Ding! Ding!!! We have a winner. =D>
You guys rock. I pulled the timing cover and you were correct. Both plugs were left out. I took the ones out of my old 304 to use in the 360.
Now to get the gaskets and put her back together.
Thanks a million.

FuzzFace2
10-15-2006, 03:21 PM
Thanks Waggy for clearing that up, still have not found that book :wink:
Caveman good to hear you found what the cause was.
That’s why we pre lube motor to find little things like that, remember when you do it again to pre lube then rotate 90* and do it again till you get oil out ALL push rods & rockers till back to TDC.
Good luck
Dave ----

milnersXcoupe
12-10-2006, 03:29 AM
A cutaway AMC block is unique - could the person who has these .jpgs please post them - in large enough format so that they may be studied in detail > please < ? :?

fuzz401
01-08-2007, 07:21 PM
what I used is the paint they use on elec motors on the inside to seal the windings and the inside of a lot of welders

seth gordon
05-31-2007, 06:10 PM
It seems that oil drainback from the heads builds up in the lifter valley. at some point oil returns to the pan by exiting through holes into the timing chain cover or it goes through holes above the cam tunnel. If the front holes are slotted, less oil goes into the crankcase and windage is reduced, but what effect does this have on cam lobe oiling. I know that the con-rod squirt holes are supposed to supply oil to pistons & cam lobes but is that sufficient.

Thanks, Seth

68 AMX 390

jeepsr4ever
06-01-2007, 06:54 AM
Seth finding rod bearings with oiling holes is hard to do unless someone has some older NOS bearings or if you have patience and can grind out oiling holes. Almost every rod mfg quit installing the side oiling holes. One can assume that the foam from the crank bleed of oil did a good enough job of lubricating so they quit that part of the machining process. Another thing to consider is the holes were there for cylinder oiling as well. High rpm and excessive oil flow do not mix well if the crank is bleeding off oil and the rods are bleeding off oil a large amount of foam and windage can cause smoking and powerloss. AMC cam lobes get oil from the lifters and as they spin oil flows up and over and down and around. If camshafts had to rely on rod holes and the few large flowback holes I doubt the cams would last very long at all. :idea:

AMX69PHATTY
06-01-2007, 08:58 AM
I've seen pictures where they drilled a number of small holes, maybe 3/16 or so, in the valley area in a row down each side in a low spot somewhere near the lifters to prevent oil collecting in the valley and to improve drainback, but the drilled holes definitely must not intersect any other oil passages like the lifter gallies. Anyone else ever done that ?
I don't remeber where I saw that picture. :-|

jeepsr4ever
06-01-2007, 09:04 AM
Yep been drilling blocks like that for a while now but I try not to build engines anymore...too busy making parts.

seth gordon
06-01-2007, 09:04 AM
So it seems that the oil squirt holes were used as insurance. It seems that a lot of the lifter valley oil drains through the cam tunnel holes, especially in the rear of the engine; Your description indicates that diverting that oil away from the crankcase will not cause lobe/lifter wear whether a flat tappet or roller tappet.

What is your opinion about crank-saracpers & windage trays?

Thanks, Seth

jeepsr4ever
06-01-2007, 09:14 AM
Both scrapers and windage trays work well. The scraper helps keep the foam down and keep the crankshaft balanced at higher rpms. The windage trays help keep the oil from running up into the crank and this also allows the oil pump to do its job by not trying to suck the oil out of the pump. When you start to get above 7000rpm the force of the crank weights and rods make for some strange windage in the crank case. Alot of strange things start to happen! Some of these items do a couple of things for instance if you offset grind a 360 crank and use a chevy rod you will have a rod journal that is much wider than a chevy rod and will have massive oil bleedoff (If you can call it massive). This will cause a smoking stroker :wink: To eliminate the smoking a crank scraper can be utilized to scrape the excessive oil off the crank. A dual scraper works better yet. Alot of these items are for special applications and for high rpm use and are not needed in a low rpm offroad or street engine. I still cant believe people still buy trap door oil pans. Swinging pickup pans are superior to the trap door pans in my experience and opinion. (Everybody has one :mrgreen: )

seth gordon
06-01-2007, 09:43 AM
My concern is controlling the oil too much and causing starvation. since racing engines typically have a larger bearing clearance, perhaps the squirt holes may be unnecessary under those conditions. The application I have in mind is a 390 with a moderate roller cam ~6500 rpm. Many around here are using the Canton road race oil pan. I can not recall seeing a windage tray for an AMC engine being offered. Some people suggest that a crank scraper results in not enough cylinder wall / cam lobe lubrication, especially at idle.

Thanks, seth

tomcat
06-01-2007, 05:05 PM
I bring up the old Q. Please post the pics again, im curious to see it.
Unfortunately my hacksaw is to small to do it by myself :mrgreen:

Jtomas801
06-01-2007, 10:10 PM
AMX69PHATTY, I believe i found what you are talking about. hot rod magazine did an article on how to build a 500 horse 401.
Here is some links to the article pages:
http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-1.jpg
http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-2.jpg
http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-3.jpg
http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-4.jpg
http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-5.jpg

Thanks,
Jon

seth gordon
06-04-2007, 09:07 AM
It seems that the opinion is somewhat mixed. Some people open up the front drain holes, which perhaps also improves oil to the distributor/cam gear. others drill holes next to the lifter boss and bypass the cam tunnel holes. Extreme applications route the oil from the valve cover directly to the pan.

If new bearings are without squirt holes perhaps it is wise to not prevent oil in the lifter valley from going into the crankcase. Or the alternative: With squirt hole bearings one can take measures to route lifter valley oil away fron the crankcase.

Bulltear Ad