PDA

View Full Version : Well are you guys ready for a billet oil pump from Bulltear?


Bulltear Ad
Bulltear Ad

jeepsr4ever
10-15-2006, 06:45 PM
Prototyping early next month on a new AMC V8 timing cover with a removable oil pump that uses a new style water pump, Chevy HEI and a couple other goodies we have planned.

The main idea of this is to make very cheap accessories.

We want to allow the use of high flow water pump that is very inexpensive (even the electric versions)
We have also thought a seperate oil pump would increase the value of the motors and make the AMC V8 oil pumps bullet proof (without adding a ton of cost!)
The use of a Chevy HEI and other Chevy style distributors is obvious. when a small weight change is implemeted these distributors work great in a AMC V8 and are very cheap!

While this is in the early stages of planning we are looking at making every facet of the timing cover seperate. Why? because if you have one thing in a stock cover that goes bad the entire assembly has to be replaced. We have done Ni coatings and they are great for the soft cast but I believe we can even evolve from there to a ceramic oil pump (possibly electric)

Opinions? Concerns?

Patf10
10-15-2006, 07:36 PM
sounds cool what type of timeframe on this and what type of cost for the cover in comparison to a stock style if you know yet?

jeepsr4ever
10-15-2006, 07:38 PM
:-|

donwag
10-16-2006, 08:02 AM
I like it. Good idea. Especially making the oil pump removable/replaceable as a unit rather than doing the whole timing cover.

Using the chevy style anything will be a little less cost.

zero cool
10-16-2006, 08:26 AM
I'll take two please! :mrgreen:

Blown7
10-16-2006, 04:19 PM
I want one now!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lo1l: :lo1l: :lo1l: :lo1l:

How's the oil pump drive? With the same kind of shaft that is driven by the distrubutor? Will the pump have provisions for the dual pickup Milodon sump? Will the original dizzy still work? Will the Accel Dual Sync work? If you change the style of water pump will the OEM pulleys work? Will a serpentine belt system be offered? What is the brand of the oil pump? Will external oil pressure be adjustable? So many questions. I still have more.
Make the cover with the ability to access the timing chain with having to remove the whole cover assembly. Will a external oil filter adapter need to be added?

Jeff

jeepsr4ever
10-16-2006, 04:53 PM
:shock:

AMX69PHATTY
10-17-2006, 12:09 AM
Why would anyone want to put that CHEAP chevy #&%*$# on an AMC Motor ?

Just kidding, sounds like a good idea. Practical and realistic.
Almost 20 years since there even was a company called AMC.
In Autoweek mag someone wrote in and asked if the speculated chev and ford merger
took place what would the company be called, American Motors ?

:shock:

Guess ya outta work some ford parts in there too maybe :mrgreen:

Blown7
10-17-2006, 02:40 AM
:shock:


:!:
Not to mention will the sealing surface with the oil pan still be the goofy rubber flat seal? Or maybe a an oil ring? Will the location of the oil pump change? Will the location of the Chevy H2O pump outlet side stay the same or will a radiator change be in order? Or use a Ford pump? While your at it a billet harded gear at the cam and a bronze gear at the dizzy. Maybe at built in pickup for a Crankshaft Position Sensor either Flying Magnet for Hall effect or reluctience wheel. Maybe a provision for a Camshaft position sensor for sequential fuel injection. Will the dizzy have options in terms of having to use a GM HEI or a phaseable rotor type. The reason I ask about quick access to the timing chain is one company at least is offering a quick access cover for SBC to access the timing chain.

Hey in the words of Bill Alexander a painter who was on PBS in the 1970's "You are the Almighty Creator" so you can start with a clean canvas and create a Masterpeice.

Rogue Racer
10-17-2006, 08:04 AM
How about a removeable front plate to facilitate camshaft changes without having to mess with the oil pan seal and distributor-to-drive gear register?

jeepsr4ever
10-17-2006, 08:45 AM
How about a removeable front plate to facilitate camshaft changes without having to mess with the oil pan seal and distributor-to-drive gear register?

Yes yes and yes

JMSII
10-17-2006, 10:47 AM
Sign me up! Just say when and I will need two! :lo1l:

runnamuck
10-18-2006, 06:29 PM
sounds really promising. alot of bugs/options.


:popcorn:

jeepsr4ever
10-30-2006, 10:26 PM
Phase one. Finding the gasket surface and finish design on the backplate

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/part1amct.jpg

The three lines represent the proper distributor to pin alignment

jeepsr4ever
10-30-2006, 11:16 PM
Getting closer... word travels fast on the interweb. Omix already knows about this :?:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/part2amct.jpg

runnamuck
10-30-2006, 11:42 PM
Getting closer... word travels fast on the interweb. Omix already knows about this :?:

get a pattent laywer on it. and cha-chig. :t:

jeepsr4ever
10-30-2006, 11:58 PM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/part3amct.jpg

Done I have the back of the timing cover mapped. We had it before but for some reason I couldnt open the file...DOH But it wasnt that bad to map again

jeepsr4ever
10-31-2006, 12:11 AM
Ok here is a rough draft of the back plate. This plate is designed to "stay in place" while the front will be able to come off for cam/timing changes.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/part4amct.jpg

Goose
10-31-2006, 09:32 AM
Dad gum it!! here ya go again..Another must have thingamajiggie,...somebody quick send me that box!




Looks cool though. and oil pressure>> cheap at any price.

AMX69PHATTY
10-31-2006, 09:51 AM
May I ask what CAD drafting software that is ?

Do you have a view of the rocker stud and Valve stem in the head
that shows the rocker tip length you've mentioned
that you could post in the Harland Sharp Rocker thread ?

jeepsr4ever
11-01-2006, 09:57 PM
We use alot of different CAD aplications, surfcam, mastercam and bobcad. For 2D drawings nothing beats Bobcad ver17. Its a little known industry secret :wink: They have updated to versions up to 21 but nothing beats 17 and after talking with the programmers there they claim 17 had bugs no other program has and its these bugs that set it apart. Seats are $100 if you want a copy.

Do I have a view of the rocker tip...no.

jeepsr4ever
11-13-2006, 05:25 PM
Ok we are throwing around the idea of integrating a 1.5" torrington bearing into the cover for cam walk. If we can find a GOOD source for 1.5" torrington bearings and bearing covers I will see it gets put into the covers. Something like this

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/products/images/spherical_thrust.JPG

I havent been able to find one with a id of smaller than .5625 however I do believe they are out there

AMX69PHATTY
11-14-2006, 05:56 AM
Are these the right kind of Torrington Thrust bearings ?
What O.D. and I.D. is needed ? 1.5 O.D. and 0.5 I.D. ?
I'm an un-employed machine designer.

http://www.torrington.com/industries/torrington/catalog/pdf/needle/n_thrust.pdf

82Waggy
11-14-2006, 07:22 AM
How would that get lubed out there at the front of the cam - splash?

jeepsr4ever
11-14-2006, 08:58 AM
We will probly end up with a large ID bearing and a custom press fit cup so we can utilize a better bearing. We will have 3 small oil slot to lube the bearing. Yes the bearing would get enough lube just form the cam gear throwing oil around in the timing cover. AMXphatty that is good to know!

jeepsr4ever
11-20-2006, 06:48 PM
Fixturing is almost done for the backing plate. It will be 1.25" thick and it will stay on the motor. Here is a sneak peek at the machining of the prototypes :idea:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/backingplate21.jpg


More as we get closer

Al Johnson
12-03-2006, 02:24 PM
Due to all the problems I've had and am in the middle of having again with the distibutor drive gear wear problem, I'd be interested in this, as a way of getting accurate distributor placement on the block for gear alignment purposes. I'm really hoping the design will remove the oil pump drive load from the distributor gear, as well. How's progress coming along, and is there any chance they will be actually available by, say, May 2007?

Al

jeepsr4ever
12-03-2006, 02:41 PM
We are hoping by the middle of Feb.

Al Johnson
12-03-2006, 03:16 PM
We are hoping by the middle of Feb.

I eagerly await the announcement, and the price. (oh-oh....)

zero cool
12-04-2006, 09:47 AM
Can you give us a ballpark price? I'm assuming "not cheap" but is it going to be closer to $500 or $1,000, or what?

jeepsr4ever
12-04-2006, 10:42 AM
We are shooting for right around $500...could go lower depending on process we will use for these. We are looking into investment casting for the base and that may bring the price down.

Blown7
12-04-2006, 04:37 PM
Price isn't a object for me, my question is. Who gets the first one?

Jeff

jeepsr4ever
12-04-2006, 04:49 PM
Well before we get that far the billet pieces will be tested here and maybe a few sent out for testing. Not sure yet if we are going to cast some parts or machine everything. We sure are sick of Crown covers thats for sure. Tired of checking every single damn piece only to have a low success rate again #-o

Goose
12-04-2006, 11:49 PM
This brings up a question.. do they take the bad ones back?? (Crown I mean) or do you get stuck with them?

jeepsr4ever
12-05-2006, 07:52 AM
Oh no they take them back. The guy I work with at Crown actually cares about customer support and making a quality part. :shock:

zero cool
12-05-2006, 08:23 AM
Maybe they need to move him over into manufacturing...


So when is the pre-order list going up for this?

a440plus6
12-10-2006, 06:23 AM
Patiently waiting. :(: :mrgreen:

Mcktiger74cj5
12-29-2006, 08:33 PM
is it ready yet i might want to try it
thanks

jeepsr4ever
12-29-2006, 09:24 PM
:sa: a little more time please

fasterdaddyfaster
01-17-2007, 10:17 PM
Hi, I am just kinda wondering about the expected availability of this timing cover/distributor/oil pump mount. I have about $500 in my pocket and before it burns a hole and disappears I had had it slated for a new HLR intake until I came across this. Thanks, Norm.

Mcktiger74cj5
01-20-2007, 04:59 PM
i think i want one im in the process of building a 360. how much? :!:

zero cool
01-23-2007, 09:10 AM
*patiently drumming fingers on the table*

Oh look. The signing bonus from the new job showed up.

*impatiently drumming finger on the table*

8)

jeepsr4ever
01-29-2007, 06:08 PM
Now for the big question....anyone insterested in a belt driven oil pump?

Lifted79CJ7
01-29-2007, 06:24 PM
This I wanna see.....

jeepsr4ever
01-29-2007, 06:36 PM
How about a nippondenso electric motor driven oil pump?

jeepsr4ever
01-29-2007, 06:42 PM
@9000rpm the pump needs to spin around 2400rpm to achieve 60psi. We could do this with a pressure relief valve which works before the filters and after the filters to meter the volume of the electric pump. OR the pump could have a metered amount of electric energy through the rpm range using the tachometer as a basis for voltage requirements.


I like the second idea but this means a good tach and some resistors. So we are looking at a variable speed 1 horse motor that will spit up to 2500rpm. We can incorporate a pump housing with 2 inputs and 2 outputs that would be 3/4 NPT for pickup for either a dry or wet sump.

mwouda
01-29-2007, 07:38 PM
Are you teasing, or for real. Heck yea :lo1l:

ironman_gq
01-29-2007, 10:05 PM
you gonna have the option of the simple mehcanically driven oil pump for those of us who like to go slow and not worry about drowning our electronics. #-o My motor never sees over 5k I like the drive on the end of the dizzy. nice and simple and no belts to come loose or electronics to drown or light on fire. :sa:

Blown7
01-30-2007, 04:55 AM
@9000rpm the pump needs to spin around 2400rpm to achieve 60psi. We could do this with a pressure relief valve which works before the filters and after the filters to meter the volume of the electric pump. OR the pump could have a metered amount of electric energy through the rpm range using the tachometer as a basis for voltage requirements.


I like the second idea but this means a good tach and some resistors. So we are looking at a variable speed 1 horse motor that will spit up to 2500rpm. We can incorporate a pump housing with 2 inputs and 2 outputs that would be 3/4 NPT for pickup for either a dry or wet sump.


Scary.!!! Parts availibility on the trail?? Or even in my little town? Dependabilty? Power needed for a 1 HP motor at 12 volts maybe 50 amps?? I've got a electric fuel pump that draws 30 amps now add to that 2 fans at 20 amps each even with a 200 amp alternator I'm getting maxxed out
Jeff

Dusty
01-30-2007, 01:11 PM
K.I.S.S......... 8)

Blown7
01-30-2007, 05:39 PM
I thought about doing that a couple years ago using this or a simular pump
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan302006007.jpg

But if you figure inrush current to start it must be on the order of 500 AMPS.
Just the plate on this motor made me rethink my options
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan302006009.jpg


K.I.S.S. X2

Jeff

ironman_gq
01-31-2007, 12:56 PM
you better plan on packing a generator in back if you wanna run a pump like that :shock: I'll Stick with the engine driven flavor for now :t:

Hammer
02-10-2007, 07:37 PM
Ok, sign me up as a tester ;)

This was on my 'to do list' for when I got a milling machine. And no I am not kidding. I have wanted to build a new multi-piece cover for years.
And I am SO GLAD you are doing this! You got the know how and skills to pull this off in a way to support a very HUNGRY amc crowd ;)

I would want to follow the KISS thought process, but need to support 7500 rpm, full roller, dual pickup Milodon pan, etc. And has to be reliable enough for froadin 100 miles from no where!

Blown7
02-24-2007, 09:22 AM
MATT Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudddddddddyyyy!!!

Gettin tired of seeing the 401 belly up on the stand.....

Hows the cover commin????????????????


:razz:

Jeff

jeepsr4ever
02-25-2007, 09:07 PM
Sorry Jeff I was putting mog axles in our ZJ this weekend didnt have time to get back to you. I have been thinkig about your setup and I believe I have a good solution.

dwg86
02-26-2007, 03:54 PM
What about casting a timing chain cover out of steel, instead of machining one? A friend of mine has had some parts cast for old steam engine tractors. Would there be legal issues in doing that?

Blown7
02-26-2007, 03:58 PM
Sorry Jeff I was putting mog axles in our ZJ this weekend didnt have time to get back to you. I have been thinkig about your setup and I believe I have a good solution.


Excellent !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lifted79CJ7
02-26-2007, 05:50 PM
Sorry Jeff I was putting mog axles in our ZJ this weekend didnt have time to get back to you. I have been thinkig about your setup and I believe I have a good solution.

OK Matt, you better put some pics up under the Jeep section!!!!

jeepsr4ever
02-26-2007, 07:34 PM
Jack check the drivetrain section. Jeff I need to know what accessories you are currently running so I can design this cover/pump for your motor.

Blown7
02-27-2007, 04:06 AM
Here's a pic of the front. In addition to what you see, a power steering pump in the OEM position will be added and I'm going to try to get another York or Sanden compressor for on board air under the power steering pump in the OEM emissions air pump position.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicOct1606059-1.jpg

And my room is tight when the whole thing is in the frame

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpic32008.jpg


Jeff

Blown7
02-27-2007, 04:54 AM
And there ain't no room at the inn for another vee belt groove at the bottom.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicOct506093.jpg

Blown7
02-27-2007, 06:17 AM
Basically I see at least two options for my engine.
1. Replace the OEM cam drive gear and dizzy gears with two or three 45 degree bevel gears and bore the cover to modify the location of the dizzy and direct drive oil pump.
2. Drive the new oil pump off the timing chain. via a matching sprocket placed in the case like a idler gear would be.
3. Drive the oil pump off the flywheel.

Jeff

Lifted79CJ7
02-27-2007, 07:56 PM
What are you talkin about Jeff, you have plenty of room under that hood! LOL! 8)
Jack
(Still green with envy - I need to start working on planes for a living!)

Blown7
02-28-2007, 05:45 AM
This is the area I pmed you about yesterday Matt.
Using the fuel eccentric area and driving down.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicOct506095.jpg

Jeff

Blown7
03-04-2007, 04:23 PM
Fixturing is almost done for the backing plate. It will be 1.25" thick and it will stay on the motor. Here is a sneak peek at the machining of the prototypes :idea:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/backingplate21.jpg


More as we get closer

Matt bUuuuuuudddyy
I carved up the Crown cover today and a 2 inch backing plate will work perfectly.

I'll email you some pics tomorrow.

Jeff

MrFurious
03-14-2007, 12:39 AM
So where are you at on this Matt? Going to be needing a new cover when I do the 360 rebuild this summer and would much prefer to go this route rather than buy the Crown piece.

jeepsr4ever
03-14-2007, 08:18 AM
I cant promise anything yet as we will be working on Jeffs piece first.

Blown7
03-14-2007, 02:52 PM
I cant promise anything yet as we will be working on Jeffs piece first.

WOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Jeff

Al Johnson
07-22-2007, 08:04 PM
Anything happening with this? Sounds like maybe not...

jeepsr4ever
07-22-2007, 09:04 PM
Jeff's cover is first and then we will finish the 5 prototypes here. We have almost everything we need for programming but are a couple months out on a finished piece.

401 Pacer
08-11-2007, 10:07 PM
If y'all need any help with CNC stuff give me a shout...I have access to two brand new custom built HAAS 5 axis machine centers. Also have a very sharp cookie programmer in house.

These guys are tanfastic and are carving up V-Twin engine parts as I type this on a Saturday night (they must be part vampire as they work around the clock!)

jeepsr4ever
08-12-2007, 09:26 AM
Dont need help yet :wink: We have CNC's in house but thanks for the offer! Check out the thread on blown7's ultra secret timing cover for latest happenings.

magnum440
09-18-2007, 07:55 PM
Still green with envy - I need to start working on planes for a living!)

Imust be working on the wrong kind of aircraft

Blown7
04-20-2013, 07:18 AM
Just figured I'd throw an update here... 10K miles, daily driver still working great.

jeepsr4ever
04-20-2013, 11:43 AM
10,000 miles out of a blower. I would say your living above the curve brother Jeff.

Blown7
04-20-2013, 08:19 PM
Still strong as ever, dependable, good oil pressure 80 @ off idle... 60 idle hot. Gotta check the drive chain for the oil pump to see how thats holding up.
Only running 10 LBS boost on the street. Top speed 130+ on the runway then it runs out of gear (3.73's with 35 inch Toyo's

Bulltear Ad