More power...

[76-cj7]

How about i just finished rebuilding my 304 and i want to go bigger with more Hp and Torque. Sounds crazy huh? 111!!! But anyways ive got my mind set on one of those stroker cranks they are talking about here on Bulltear but would it be wise for me to go from 304 to 340 or from 360 to 401 or shall i just quit being a pud-smacker and find a 401 form the get go and get it over with? :-| I have an 80 CJ-5 with 35" Baja claws and a 20 outback with 3.73's, a detriot, superior axles and SSBC disc brake set up. Then i have a 30 upfront all stock just waiting to break so i have a reason to replace it with a 9inch from Currie. What do you guys think i should build for a motor? It sees off-roading every weekend in the mud and sometimes rocks so i want the low end grunt but i also want to be able to rip down the interstate and feel the power when a cavalier tries to pass me.......The 304 had the power i thought it would but its not enough!!!! I would just like some opinions one this please?

[fifesjeep]

For the price of the strokers here.. I'd keep the 304... $h!t, once you get that little 304 stroked to a 340... that motor is gonna scream!!! and have an ass-ton of torque on the lower half of the rpm range... I seriously can't wait to see some dyno numbers from one of these... The only problem is oiling once again... with higher revs... etc.. We need to get an awesome oiling system manufactured and sold for cheap... then that would be a fricken awesome set-up... toss on a torker 670cfm carb lopey cam roller rockers... MSD kit.. and she'll beready to kick some a$$!

[76-cj7]

Now thats the kind of answer i was hoping for!! But as far as that damn oiling goes!!! :(: I already have the valley pan mod, a nickel plated timing cover from Bulltear :mrgreen: and a Milodon oil pan.....8 qt. :? Is it just me or does everyone hate them fawkers who always say, "You should have just saved yur money and built a Chevy, or a Mopar, Or a Ford!!". I want them to die!!! 8)

[fifesjeep]

Fawk A CHEBY or FARD... or any other Motor that DOESN'T BELONG IN A JEEP or AMC BUILT VEHICLE... KEEP IT AMC/JEEP!!!
Yeah complete oil ring for the bearings... bigger holes drilled for oiling/draining.. and then everything should be butter
I'm actually excited about this stroker.. I'm going to go and buy a 304 and stroke it... Just so I can say my "little" 304 whooped some serious ass... :lo1l:

[76-cj7]

Damn straight! Mine is .060 already....I need to find a low mile block thats stock bore so all it needs is a hone....Man just think a 340...that thing would rev up quick as hell! and too the moon and beyond. Can we say SWEET?!?!?!

[AMX69PHATTY]

Don't it work like this ?,
big holes, short stroke = high rpm horsepower, no low end
small holes, long stroke = low rpm torque, no rpm or horsepower

Horsepower is a misleading figure, it is not measured directly.
It is calculated from Torque and RPM.
So if ya shift the torque peak up ya get more HP,
but loose low end torque and drivability.

Detonation can be managed with distributor advance curves.
Calculated Static compression don't mean much, what matters
is the Dynamic compression, Cam timing, and when the Intake valve closes.
This and timing advance curve are what effects detonation ain't it ?

For low end torque, there is now replacement for displacement.
Find a 401 and rebuild it with cast pistons, heck just hone it at standard bore.
New stock Clearance on casts is .001-.002 on diameter, for forged it's .006-.009.
Seems silly to spend all that money for forged and bored and then
end up putting it back together 3 or 4 times looser than stock casts.
#-o
I say find a good 401, hone it, and put in new casts, and a rev limiter.

[Goose]

The old saying is.. there is no substitute for cubic inches..
Or maybe "Cubic inches or cubic dollars , your choice"

Me? find a 360 or 401 (preferably a 401) and have the same power in a much more civilized package..(Read that less aggravating package) plus not IF but When the Mo-Power bug bites you again..you arent at the upper limit of your motor..you are at the lower limit..and you can build a gob more motor..and use it (hammer on it) without worrying everytime you do..

[fifesjeep]

I think that with this set-up the 304 will be in the healthy 300's or even low 400hp range and yielding an ass-ton of torque for such a small Engine.... then again it all is depending on each and every set-up. I can't agree more about "No replacement for Displacement"... But I'm looking at it like this... the 304 is a gutless wonder that can turn some decently low numbers with minor modifications... With this Stroker kit... man that puppy is gonna scream something sick... My old 304 I had running around 6500-7500rpms screaming through the mud for a while and the only thing holding that back was the rev limit... and the oiling :mrgreen: I can see this motor with the stroke kit pushing 7000rpms... and holding just fine... (Like I said, it's all on how it's set-up).
I'd still like to see a little 304 stroked and sounding like a total bad-ass!!

[76-cj7]

Thats the way im leaning on this subject. Id like to keep the 304 so i can get an ass ton of revs. and a 400 hp. motor is exactly what im looking for. I just want something that will have an ass load of power but yet still be calm enough to be a streetable motor without having to worry about something fucking up. To me money will not be an issue for this motor cause the way i see it is your gonna have to spend some cash to get what you want and a sweet motor is what i want. A 401 is gonna be hard to come by but around here a 360 is the most plentiful motor around. Theres 3 or 4 of em sitting in the local u-pull it but yet not a single 304....and plus you dont really hear of anyone building a 304 also. I want to see the look on peoples faces when i tell them its a 304 and then show em how much cooler an AMC is than a shitty chevy. :mrgreen: :!: by running circles around them!!

[82Waggy]

400hp may be a bit optimistic for even a stroked 304.

For reference check out donwags 401 build thread in the general chat section of this forum. He did a pretty nice build and dyno'd near 350hp and 428ft lbs torque. The most impressive thing about his engine was that it made over 400ftlbs from 2000-4400rpm - now that's a good Jeep engine.

I'd bet this would actually "feel" more impresssive than pushing a stroked 304 to 400hp at higher rpm with a narrower torque range - which would be the result using fewer cubes.

I'm not saying don't stroke the 304, but I would set my sights on a wide torque curve and not peak hp.

[fifesjeep]

I don't know man... a 304 running 10:1 compression that is punched and stroked, running larger valves, (Using the chevy valves w/ smaller valve stems) Larger Rocker Ratios, a nice roller set-up with A nasty cam... (mid to high .500's of lift) Port and polish on the heads, A nice torker intake with a 670cfm (maybe 700-750cfm) holley double pumper... a nice set of 1 5/8" headers running into a 3x6" collector gasket matched etc... And I'll be willing to bet she'll smoke the 400hp range without a doubt... then again the roller set-up and machining is going to be some $$$
But like I said earlier this stroker kit will be pushing the Healthy 300hp and possibly the low 400's depending on each and every set-up.
But with displacement comes torque, and in healthy quantities

[82Waggy]

No doubt it can be done. There is a 355cid engine in PAS (390 crank destroked to 3.25 using heavy web 360 service block w/4.175bore) - equipped with dual 1150cfm dominators.

I think you are going to spend some bucks getting a 304 stroker built. I'll have right at 9k in my 401 build and I had the block, crank, rods, and heads (though a bit more than a quarter of that money went to Edelbrock MPEFI). There is just a lot of stuff to get that adds up quick, Though I'm also doing some dress up stuff that adds to it as well - Nickle timing and valve covers, etc.

Bet you will spend 6-8k though.

[fifesjeep]

No doubt it can be done. There is a 355cid engine in PAS (390 crank destroked to 3.25 using heavy web 360 service block w/4.175bore) - equipped with dual 1150cfm dominators.

I think you are going to spend some bucks getting a 304 stroker built. I'll have right at 9k in my 401 build and I had the block, crank, rods, and heads (though a bit more than a quarter of that money went to Edelbrock MPEFI). There is just a lot of stuff to get that adds up quick, Though I'm also doing some dress up stuff that adds to it as well - Nickle timing and valve covers, etc.

Bet you will spend 6-8k though.

No doubt!... I spent 6k on my 360... a little over a $1000 on machining etc.. Stud boses, valves, valve guides etc, milled the heads, bored, honed and decked the block, crank turned 10/10 the list goes on!

[Goose]

Heh Heh, Still.. I love the sound of a 'Lil Motor spinnin up (as long as it's not mine..

[fifesjeep]

my buddy has a 289 that he has running in the mid 8000's to low 9000 rpms maybe more... It's Fricken Sick!!!!! It seriously sounds scary... He spent about $18,000 on parts & machining... and then sent his engine block and parts out to West virginia to be built... His Custom Intake ran $2500... This thing is sick.. I'll email him and have him send me some pics so I can post this thing... (To top it off he's putting this thing in a Small Ford Ranger!)

[Goose]

See thats just wrong..I wish I had 18000 dollars.. I sure could spread it around further than just the engine.. ok maybe 5 grand...nahh.. maybe 2 cars

[82Waggy]

I have a buddy that is a high RPM Ford freak too. He used to run a dual quad tunnel ram 289 in a pinto drag car that he launched off the line at 10krpm.

He now wants to build a high R Cleveland and restore an early Mach 1 - outdated engine and too hard to get decent cores & parts for these days in my opinion.

I like my AMC's for lot's of good reasons but they too are a pain to set up right. Why the off the shelf aftermarket pistons are all wrong I just don't understand (freakin KB comes out with a 401 piston with a chebby wrist pin diameter - what's up with that?). 360's/390's are even tougher to get good quench without going to custom forged pistons. Hope MC puts the stroker package together right.

I've lately been fantasizing about doing a custom flat fender project with four link coil suspension and a new Ecotech DOHC engine - 260hp/260ftlbs stock with a nice wide torque curve from 2-6krpm. That's better than a stock 401, and it's a nice light 4-banger! :?

[fifesjeep]

I've lately been fantasizing about doing a custom flat fender project with four link coil suspension and a new Ecotech DOHC engine - 260hp/260ftlbs stock with a nice wide torque curve from 2-6krpm. That's better than a stock 401, and it's a nice light 4-banger! :?

That isn't right man!!!! That's wrong by all means... But you did forget to mention the awesome MPG you'll still get!!!!

[FuzzFace2]

Not to knock this 304 build as I would like to see what can be pushed out of the little motor BUT!
Don’t rock crawlers work in the low RPM range? OK maybe mud would be high RPM but street would be low too. Also as RPM goes up reliability goes down no? So if running lower RPM then I don’t think the torker would be the way to go maybe an air gap or performer.
You are asking a motor to work at both low & high RPM and do it great, we all want are cake and eat it too but I think you have to pick an RPM range and work to it.

Some one said bigger valves, if you use 360 to 401 heads on a 304 block you have to notch the block as the valves hit it. Because of this the valves would be shrouded and what you made up in bigger valve flow you lost to shrouding!

I say start with the 360 (or 401 if you can find one) you already start with more power, bigger valves, can get forged rods/pistons if you don’t stroke it and if you do stroke it don’t they use Chevy stuff?

For comparison I had a 304 in my drag Jav stock 304 valve heads, 10:1 pistons, .620 lift cam, torker/650 dp. 1 7/8 headers ran low 15’s and spin to 7000 till a bearing let go
.
Replacement 360 stock valve 291 heads, stock 74 pistons maybe compression is 9.5 with the 291 heads, .490 lift cam, same torker/carb/headers runs high 12’s 6000 RPM

My .02 Go with the 360
Dave ----

[fifesjeep]

:(:

[fifesjeep]

I guess if you had more torque in that 304 you would've ran a better time than 15 seconds... (Also depending on the set-up of the car etc... ie: suspension, weight to hp etc). This stroker kit will simply put the torque in the bottom end helping to launch the projectile down the strip... The great thing about it is that with this combination (stroker kit).. you'll have that 10:1 compression ratio, you'll have the bottom end torque and you'll still be able to hit the high rpms... Do the complete roller set-up and you'll be butter!!!
I woudn't even bother with the 291c heads.... In my opinion they're over rated... especially compared to the newer larger cc heads... with a little work on these newer and larger cc heads they'll perform better than the 291 heads hands down

[82Waggy]

That isn't right man!!!! That's wrong by all means... But you did forget to mention the awesome MPG you'll still get!!!!


And they are supercharging the crap out of the Eco's now too!

Mate it to a modern 5 speed and Atlas Tcase - now that would be cool.

OR, how about extending the hood line of the flat fender and dropping in a Viper V-10 - The Deusenburg of Jeeps!!

And you thought you were the only sick one :sa:

[82Waggy]

I just remembered another thing to consider when stroking std 304-360's blocks. They have thin webs and may not hold up to stroking very well. In the Trans Am racing days, AMC's were blowing up all over the place until they went to the heavier webbed service block - then they could not be beaten.

[FuzzFace2]

Fifesjeep I hear you on the 291 heads over after market heads. Would love to get a set of Indy sr’s heck why not the full race cnc’s and intake!
What stopped me was money, isn’t it always and time! Had 2 weeks to get motor together before a race and all I had where stock parts to work with other than the cam kit and that had to work with out any machine work.
So the 291’s where used to bump compression up from stock 8.25 (74 Jeep 360) to maybe 9.5, would be nice if it was 10:1.

As for the car every thing was the same: Th400, 4000 stall, 4.56 locker, 9x28x15 slicks, 3110# with driver, pull one motor change over intake/carb, dist. and drop back in.

I think that if you’re going to put time & money into a motor might as well start with some thing a little bigger like the 360 and stroke it :?
Dave ----

[fifesjeep]

Agreed with starting bigger but for those who want to build a small 304 and have it stomp the competition (Chevy/fords/etc).. I'm all for it. Plus I'd love to see a 304 hit 350 to 400hp

[76-cj7]

Now this is the kind of talk I like to hear...The whole purpose of me starting htis thread was to get differnt people's opinions and it sure has worked!! Thats one thing i love about Bulltear is the quick and intellegent responses! Over at pirate4x4.com i always got mixed answers and they have the hardcore (which has very little if any hardcore chat) i kept getting mixed answers that made no sense, then when i went to the newbie section i got barely anything out of it. Then i found Bulltear and finally figured out that there is more than just me out there who loves AMC!!!! Like i said guys, keep up the great work!

[Holeshot]

Why not use a 401 block with the 3.25" stroke? (358 cu. in.)

I do believe that this is the combo that Shirley Shahan, Wally Booth, & others were using for ProStock, but they didn't have the heads we have now.

http://home.comcast.net/~dhoelcher/amc/post/340_rev.gif

[milnersXcoupe]

the smaller bore is perfect for Turbo charging or Supercharging,
forget trying to make HP / Torque with crazy comp. ratios / strokes / RPM.

join this group & lurk:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/jyturbo/

run a single Turbo - you can go 'Blow-Thru' with a carb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BLOWTHRU/


or
get 'jiggy' & get an ECM from a Pontiac Sunbird Turbo # 1227749
about $40.00 > www.car-parts.com


the jyturbo group has a few AMC 304 Turbo installs in their Archives.


Turbos:

www.mjmturbos.com



you can run 6lbs.Boost on cast pistons > I'd install some forged so you can twist the Boost Controller.

400HP is easy with a Turbo > and > you can back off the Boost & tool around town on 8.5 compression all day > mild mannered grocery getter until you spin the Controller...........
:t: :sa: :razz: :!: :-|

[Holeshot]

That first URL is coming up as invalid syntax, www.jyturbo@yahoogroups.com,
looks like a mailto addy.

I agree 100% about the smaller bores for forced induction, the smaller bore blocks have much more material to keep the bores round under boost of up to 30 psi!!! The 390/401s are pretty thin even before boring +.030" (as far as distortion letting the burning charge get past the rings & burn a piston @ high boost pressure goes).

1,000 HP is not an unreasonable target.

http://home.comcast.net/~dhoelcher/amc/tech/eng/boat-ex_3.jpg

[gschuld]

I apologize ahead of time for my discouraging thoughts. As far as displacement goes...I take the easy way out personally... 390/401s. Costs the same to rebuild generally, and starting with an extra 100 cubes is a real help. It will likely be worth more when finished(especially a 390/401) The cost of aquiring even a 401 core will surely be cheaper than a stroker crank for the 304. Basically, in the end you will likely find it to be much simpler, less expensive, more durable, and more streetable to get 400hp+(naturally aspirated) from an AMC the larger the engine is to start with(and used 360's are practically free). About the only thing that changes that situation in my mind is when serious forced induction is involved. If done carefully, I hear a turbo setup for an AMC can be done quite cheaply if you don't mind doing a bit of researching and scrounging.

I am all for the turbo 304 package. They are very cool! They can handle serious boost, especially with good forged pistons! I'm a CJ guy myself and I'm sure glad that you aren't leaning toward a chevy swap. If you are serious about a 304 build, I have 3 old 304's residing in the "storage department". Let me know if you need something.

George

[Holeshot]

Who needs a stroker crank when a 390/401 crank can be used in a 290/304 block!!!

[Lifted79CJ7]

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/jyturbo/

[dbesade]

Who needs a stroker crank when a 390/401 crank can be used in a 290/304 block!!!

Hear Hear :lo1l:

[milnersXcoupe]

I've a 1978 360 with 33K miles on it for a Turbo project -
thinking of a 304 for stronger cylinderwalls - to use 360 heads
on a 304 block - what type of notching am I looking at ?

When I find a 401 crankshaft - I'l run Scat H-beams & custom Forged / Perfect Circle gapless ring pak.

Are the main webs on an early 70s' 304 any stronger than the later engines ? :-|