Final days of the 401 on the dyno [Archive]

Blown7

12-29-2006, 03:53 AM

Well the last three days have been long, 15+ hrs
I have just about learned all I ever will about the newly built engine, FAST ECU, timing, retarding The need to take time building a engineand using the best parts. I have learned all I can about the infamous AMC engine oiling mods, Bulltear/Crown timing covers, 534 plates, oil pump gears, gaskets, the valley bypass line, and oil pressure drops in the system. (Interesting findings there I can tell you!!!)

I have many opinions, observations, and factual data to sift thru.
Not many pics or video as I was usually oily, dirty and just straight out modifiying, machining parts,and removing and installing. Or cleaning the dyno cell of what seemed gallons of Valvoline 20-50 racing oil. ( More to come on that.)

Heres the cell after 2 hrs and 4 guys cleaning oil off the ceiling, walls and everywhere.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicDec2906004.jpg

Some of the highlights.
Fuel Used
54 gallons of 93 octaine, 100LL Avgas, and 104 octane racing fuel.

Oil
4 cases (48 quarts)

Oil Filters
11 Filters used (various types)

47 separate engine pulls

Well I gotta get going for now but we did 4 pulls with this stuff

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicDec2906001.jpg

Let me tell you, has anyone seen a 401 AMC turning a 30 old crankshaft and inputting 900 ft lbs of torque on two bolt mains?

It's damn scary :shock:

Heres a vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmvzACSpQVM

Jeff

Blown7

12-29-2006, 04:44 AM

BTW this thread is will I will post the disassembly and inspection of the engine to inspect it when I get it back to the hanger. And the Ken Parkman mods? "Not really the final answer"

Jeff

1980_Cj7

12-29-2006, 05:52 AM

Anxious to see and hear the gory details, Jeff, as we are getting ready to start the second go around on ours. Not shooting for the kind of power you're fooling with, but still interested in any findings that might benefit us, like oiling stuff.

82Waggy

12-29-2006, 06:13 AM

Can't wait to hear. Nothing like imperical data.

radamx

12-29-2006, 08:43 AM

Not sure what was coming up in front of the engine during the dyno pull .Oil or steam but it was going right in the butterflys. maybe a little contamination during a test don't you think.

And yes I have seen 900 ft torque on 2 bolt caps after awhile you kinda forget about it.

Hope all is still going well and you get to play in the jeep soon .
Good luck. =D>

jeepsr4ever

12-29-2006, 09:57 AM

Jeff looking forward to your report :wink:

Blown7

12-30-2006, 02:17 AM

Not sure what was coming up in front of the engine during the dyno pull .Oil or steam but it was going right in the butterflys. maybe a little contamination during a test don't you think.

Yes that was water vapor/steam comming out of the oil fill tube.
(Good observation!)
I've got a small coolant leak under the left bank of the head at the valley pan gasket. I'm going to change the valley pan gasket to the separate gaskets. I didn't like the way it fit initially installing the blower manifold. Also when I do the chassis install I'll do a crankcase evac system.

And yes I have seen 900 ft torque on 2 bolt caps after awhile you kinda forget about it.

I hope I can and not be reminded someday by having a custom by crash two piece crankshaft. #-o

That is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. Alot of people never have seen a Nitrous engine and it was my first time. The video doesn't even do it justice. A few have asked me to describe it and the best anaology I can come up with is once the Nitrous lights off at 3000 RPM it's like a whole other engine inside of this one comes to life. The sound and depth of vibrations and engine sound quality increase dramatically.
If your watching the dyno screen on a typical run when the dyno loads the engine, it hangs there at 3 K for a couple of seconds until the dyno unloads the engine allowing it to accelerate. You can easily follow along on the screen the increasing RPM and torque figures.
Conversely on a Nitrous run when the Nitrous is injected there is no hanging at 3 grand, and the screen numbers ( and graph display) increase so fast all you see is a blur of numbers until you get to the rev limiter then they start slowing enough to be understandable and till it sinks in, believeable.

Hope all is still going well and you get to play in the jeep soon .
Good luck. =D>

Everything I think went very well and I am pleased.

Jeff

Blown7

12-30-2006, 03:37 AM

For my first post on observations and findings I cannot remember if I have ever read or seen addressed on this board or any other AMC board under "Tech" the oil pressure drop induced by the oil filter or filters itself.
When we first started the engine a couple weeks ago the oil pressure steady held at 60 PSI cold.( A testement to MC and his plunger/spring inspections) After the engine warmed up the pressure would drop at idle a few pounds less after every run till it would settle at around 27-30 PSI steady at idle oil temp around 210-220 degrees F.
Greg didn't like it and I tried to legitimize it by saying "well it is a AMC engine"
He didn't want to do any more pulls as the oil pressure wasn't to his satisfaction.
Last week when he called to tell me that the cam bolt backed out and thru the timing cover I told him to remove the cover and weld it and reinstall. As I knew the logisticis of MC overnighting me a new cover on a Saturday nite was impossible.

While he had the cover removed he disassembled the 534 plate and the oil pump gears. He made the decision to modify the assembly by discarding the gasket between the pump housing and 534 plate using silicone as a sealer and turning the gear height down till they where .002 thousandths below the pump housing ( the imfamous .007-.008 height or whatever above the pump cavity allowing for gasket thickness)

(During this time MC contacted me and on his own Nickle overnited a new improved 534 Tri flow second generation plate to install.
A big public "Thanks Matt" your good people.)

Well all was reinstalled,
Damn if the same indicated readings where observed.

Thats when the drilling and tapping 1/8 pipe tap holes everywhere decision was made by me to get to the bottom of the damn AMC oiling questions once and for all. (Or at least on this engine)

(Disclaimer your actual oil pressure variations may change from mine, but I would bet my family farm that it won't be more than 3 percent and it won't matter if alot of oil goes to the rockers, cam bearings or wherever people say it goes too much to in a typical AMC engine.) :lo1l:

After seeing the flow volume of oil under 50 PSI out of our little AMC gear pumps all over the test cell for myself at idle I have determined flow ain't a problem :t:

All kidding aside.

Seriously lack of pressure is or pressure drop at various locations to be specific.
(Indicated engine oil pressure was taken at the front galley right side conventially where it is usually taken.)

The first fitting I tapped was at the oil filters to indicate what the filter/s looses from the pump pressure.
I already had drilled and tapped the 534 plate to find the pressure relief plunger will hold a steady 60 PSI hot at any rpm(not too bad with a 15 LB spring on a .562 dia plunger with approx .25 square inches of surface area.

All filters will loose between 10-15 PSI each right there depending on the filter. Add two in series like I did and you will loose double.

Everybody following?
Tomorrow everywhere else.'
Enough for today.

Looking over my notes I noticed that the engine Guru's mentioned that the engine acceleration under no load was one of the best they have seen ever, meaning the time from idle to 5500 RPM was following the TPS accurately. (Basically as fast as you could move the throttle lever the engine would corrospond.) No one has a answer for that.

Jeff

jeep_man_401

12-30-2006, 06:07 AM

If a person looks at the AMC block and follows all the turns and obstructions there are many places for a pressure drop.

First and foremost is the oil pick-up tube location...with the long hole drilled going to the pump in the oil pan rail.

Another one is straight out of the cover to the block, a D shaped hole in the cover going to a round hole in the front of the block. #-o

From there it takes a 90 degree turn to go up to the Y in the valley with the 2 screw in plugs. #-o

At the Y lies 3 90 degree turns. (1 over the Y to the other lifters and 2 more turns to go down the block to oil the mains and cam bearings + the lifters the other to oil the lifters side only).

Then there are the 90 degree turns it takes to oil the main bearings. :shock:

While at Tech. College we learned about the pressure drop of a 90 degree turn flowing fluids. Ask any plumpers...

the AMC V8 has at LEAST 7 of these turns... 111!!!

The only way to minimise the turns is to take a small die grinder with a long bit (6" or more) and radius these turns. You can get at all of them except the main bearings with a small bit.

The front of the block in the valley with the 2 plugs should have all the sharp edge raduis with a die grinder.

Grind the front of the block the same as your cover...

I spent many hours just looking for these restictions and grinding them away as much as possible before the block went the the hot tank. I then ran long cleaning brushes through them and cleaned it myself again with parts wash and high pressure air.

I have always had lower oil pressure at idle than most built Chevys...Every dyno guy has ran thousands of these and MAYBE one AMC. They are used to seeing high idle oil pressure...but the oil pump uses HP.

Any more pressure than needed is just robbing HP from the motor and wearing the cam gears and can in some cases can cause timing spark scatter on the dissy.

I even port matched the Indy cover I used to the block...MC I hope your new cover has a matching hole :? (cool stuff at the shop also!!!)

As to the oil mess, I made a big one also when the oil filter gasket went south (or was it west??) on my motor...oiled the ceiling and walls of my grarage. :t:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/jeep_man_401/Portmatchoilholes.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/jeep_man_401/Rightsidelifterline.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/jeep_man_401/Yoilporthole.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/jeep_man_401/OilPressureinport.jpg

Going against most chevy guys I wanted more oil on the cam also. So I drilled a few more hole above the cam lobes to drop oil onto the cam. Most races block these holes off to keep the oil from falling on the crank and rods...thus robbing HP. My view was I run my motor on the street and it sees alot of idle time at stop lights. I wanted the cam to have plenty of oil while idling...a good cam will always make more power than one with a flat lobe! :lo1l:

Mudrat

12-30-2006, 09:15 AM

Heres a vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmvzACSpQVM
And another one of his...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX8ALp1I7AQ&NR

jeep_man_401, cools stuff!!! Makes me want to pick up another one and 'try so stuff' - #-o 'Course I'd probably become single and living in the shop, but hell .... :mrgreen:

fuzz401

12-30-2006, 12:39 PM

jeep_man_401, cools stuff!!! Makes me want to pick up another one and 'try so stuff' - 'Course I'd probably become single and living in the shop, but hell ....

I will try it on the next motor but I will still be in the house 8) due to it will be her gremlin :t:

jeepsr4ever

12-30-2006, 01:13 PM

Chris you are correct! The fastest way to the oil galley without creating a new feed from the top would be from the pressure port. Alot of racers including Hemmy Adtkins and John Garland use our 534 plate and use that port to feed their race motors.

Blown7

12-31-2006, 12:36 PM

So this was my first problem

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicDec3106010.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicDec3106011.jpg

Anybody see whats wrong with the design?

Moving on, I did all the mods jeepman401 did in regards to the oiling system.
But one of the most interesting things that was discovered was the pressure drop of the left side galley rear. And the lack of drop at the right ( where the valley oil line is connected.)

The left rear read approximatly 10 PSI lower thru all the RPMs than the right galley input. (at the conventional gage port) Which sounds reasonable. What was interesting was the right rear had the same reading as the convential gage port. MEANING the valley oil line is doing what it was designed to do.
MOVING OIL AND PRESSURE.
HOW MUCH?
I don't know I didn't have a flowmeter handy but I think I'll install one later in the valley oil line with a one way check valve.

Now I know ol' 82 Waggy will disagree, but my evidence is given the pressure drop of all the 90 degree bends (which jeepman401 described so elegantly above and which BTW drop about .6 inches of Mercury per each bend or about .25 PSI per 90 degree bend ) I should have noted a pressure drop at the right rear galley even for the distance involved not including the actual pathways of the galleys off the main galley there should be a pressure drop, but I was reading the same pressure as the main feed galley from the pump output.

Now I calculated long ago I needed about 1/2 gallon per minute oil flow thru the main bearings ( I drilled the main feed to the bigger size drill and have a cross drilled crank) to keep the bearing heat radiating capacity temperture rise under 20 degrees F with 190 degree incoming oil with a SAE 50 weight oil. Given a friction HP loss of about 1/2 HP at each main not including the thrust bearing which takes more given it's length to diameter ratio. BTW I calculated the mains at .24 with a full oil groove. But maybe thats why it accelerates so well
Actually now that I look back I could have use solid bearings with just a oil hole on the last two mains to get the l/d ratio double thereby increasing the torque parameter vs Eccentricy ratio by double.

My main journal bearing lubrication analysis indicated a bearing load of 593 lbs/sq in at 6000 RPM with a surface speed in inches per minute of 47118 inches per minute or 3926.5 feet per minute. That little journal travels 3/4 of a mile in one minute at 6000 RPM (2.500 journal diameter x pi x 6000 RPM)
My clearnace modus was .0012
Main clearanace was set to .003 giving me a actual hydrodynamic flow of .1926

Bottom line for me
Valley line works period.
Oil filters suck (but what can you do? )
There is no such thing as a magic number of a certain engine RPM per what oiling mod to do. You have to look at each design parameter then decide what or if.
I think all the "big names" in the AMC engine building world knew all this 30 yrs ago but they still ain't tellin'
and damn Ol' Smokie Yunicks dead.

The rear main bearing problems alleduded to in so many posts and articles is real but it may not be from lack of oil or pressure but from bearing friction heat rise, crank whip, assymetrical torque loading, hydrodynamic flow or lack therof or even line bore/crank error.

BTW next segment discussing the oil filter adapters.

Jeff

fuzz401

12-31-2006, 12:49 PM

could it be the passage between the 2 filters necks down tomuch

Blown7

12-31-2006, 12:55 PM

On a entirely separate note many have asked me why I didn't use 4 bolt mains given the HP output.
1. I don't think they are needed given the size ans strength of the webbing.
2. I have seen aftermarket 4 bolt splayed caps break a block given how they "pull" the casting and create new fatique lines and stress risers.
3. It is my belief that the two bolt mains will never give me any heartburn given everything has been seasoned and relieved for 30 yrs.
4. If I did it again I'd prolly use dowel pins instead.

Jeff

Blown7

12-31-2006, 12:59 PM

could it be the passage between the 2 filters necks down tomuch
Yep thats a series flow filter, the oil has to flow thru both filters till it gets to the output side. 10 psi loss thru each filter then add 10+10 lbs =20 PSI pressure drop right there.
I thought it was a parallel filter I didn't look close enough.

Jeff

82Waggy

12-31-2006, 02:26 PM

Sorry Blown7, but until you run it without the valley line and measure the same drop on the right side I won't be convinced.

Sounds to me like you have a restriction on the left side to me.

jeepsr4ever

12-31-2006, 02:54 PM

1980_Cj7

12-31-2006, 04:16 PM

So this was my first problem

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicDec3106010.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicDec3106011.jpg

Anybody see whats wrong with the design?

Jeff

YES! It's blocking the picture of the girl on the calendar. No wonder you can't get the juices flowing!

82Waggy

12-31-2006, 04:37 PM

jeepsr4ever

12-31-2006, 06:13 PM

Well is depends on where he put his gauge. With both sides being fed from a single source and the passenger side feeding the cam then the mains the last main bearings are always the ones that suffer. AMC blocks only feed the cam and mains from the passenger side and with such nice big bearings you can roach a set pretty quick. I say "the motor burps" :idea:

Mudrat

12-31-2006, 06:17 PM

http://www.floridajeepers.net/images/smiles/popcorn.gif

jeepsr4ever

12-31-2006, 06:19 PM

GEEZ!!!!

I didnt even notice that the dual filter sends to one filter then to the next!! What a horrible design :?: :?: :?: :(: :(: :(:

I wonder what the rate is of the spring in the bypass. The dual filter assemblies we sell dont have a oil filter bypass because they dont need one. They feature a dual in and out and feed both filters at the same time :t: Those are the best of the best.

Goose

01-01-2007, 01:46 AM

I just want to thank you for putting in all this info.. you have spent the money abd done the time.. and this is great info!!
(plus it's real world verifiable) did I read right? did you get 900 horse on the bottle?.. :shock: :shock: :? I definately want video of that ride

Blown7

01-01-2007, 01:57 AM

Blown7

01-01-2007, 02:14 AM

Sorry Blown7, but until you run it without the valley line and measure the same drop on the right side I won't be convinced.

Sounds to me like you have a restriction on the left side to me.

Yep its called cam bearings

How do cam bearings interfere with the flow down the left hand (drivers side) lifter gallery? For that matter, they cannot be interfering with flow down the right side gallery either.

I drilled and tapped both rear oil galley plugs at the flywheel side to get a reading at the end of the runs at the dead end. Tough to get a 1/16" line between the flywheel and the block.
The reference point was the convential oil pressure port right side front.
I could see where the idea came for the "U" loop at the back of the block some people have used in the past.
I regard the pressure drop (actually it was closer to 8 PSIG) to the extra length of traveling over the top, the 90 degree turn and then down the length of the block. (Or a lifter or two are bleeding off a little more. No big deal to me. Just interesting.
The cam bearings I used where not redrilled with a smaller hole and reindexed just installed right out of the box.
With the two line sump pickup I got plenty of volume and the system loaded with 12 quarts of oil I don't think I'll run out.

Jeff

Jeff

Blown7

01-01-2007, 02:23 AM

When I get the engine home I'll take more pics. I really want to show MC the bootyfab pressure adjustment port I made on the 534. It really helped to adjust the pressure accurately at idle. Thats one of the reasons one of the filters blew, initally Joe blipped the throttle before I could adjust it properly and we had a pressure spike right off the end of my 100 lb max pressure gages.

Jeff

Blown7

01-01-2007, 03:58 AM

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicDec3106010.jpg

HEY MC!!!
Speaking of dual oil filter housings, how much would you charge me to make this style in a parallel flow from flat stock? With a big Bulltear logo engraving on the top??? Also gonna need a custom oil filler cap with Blown 401 on it.

Jeff

1980_Cj7

01-01-2007, 04:31 AM

Jeff, so what kind of numbers did you get with the nitrous? Or did you already post them and I'm missing them somewhere?

Blown7

01-01-2007, 06:27 AM

Jeff, so what kind of numbers did you get with the nitrous? Or did you already post them and I'm missing them somewhere?

909 Ft lbs torque. 867 HP
Torque outran the horsepower.

82Waggy

01-01-2007, 07:18 AM

I drilled and tapped both rear oil galley plugs at the flywheel side to get a reading at the end of the runs at the dead end. Tough to get a 1/16" line between the flywheel and the block.
The reference point was the convential oil pressure port right side front.
I could see where the idea came for the "U" loop at the back of the block some people have used in the past.
I regard the pressure drop (actually it was closer to 8 PSIG) to the extra length of traveling over the top, the 90 degree turn and then down the length of the block. (Or a lifter or two are bleeding off a little more. No big deal to me. Just interesting.
The cam bearings I used where not redrilled with a smaller hole and reindexed just installed right out of the box.
With the two line sump pickup I got plenty of volume and the system loaded with 12 quarts of oil I don't think I'll run out.

Jeff

How do you account for those that found no measurable drop in pressure from one end of the galley to the other, an excessive flowing lifter? I would have thought this would result in a system wide pressure drop, but if you think there is extra restriction "flowing over the top" to the left side then maybe this in concert with an excessive flowing lifter would account for it. Did you use a restricter plug in the left side galley?

The only way to know for sure if the bypass line is working would be to measure the right side galley at both ends with and without the line.

Hey Mudrat, pass the popcorn! :razz:

PS: Jeff, are you sure you did not kink the sender line trying to get past the flywheel?

Blown7

01-01-2007, 09:27 AM

Here's a short 2 min vid showing the laptop screen with the engine at fast idle with one of many commentaries by Joe describing the 2 operating parameters of many of the FAST system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-yB0KRE3ys

BTW there are 16 rows of boxes across the screen and down and it is the tuners job is to make sure ALL the numbers in each box is correct using the Lambda sensor for a guide.

Jeff

Blown7

01-01-2007, 10:01 AM

How do you account for those that found no measurable drop in pressure from one end of the galley to the other, an excessive flowing lifter? I would have thought this would result in a system wide pressure drop, but if you think there is extra restriction "flowing over the top" to the left side then maybe this in concert with an excessive flowing lifter would account for it. Did you use a restricter plug in the left side galley? No

This was a measurement of the right galley aft (passenger side) to the left galley aft (which showed the lower reading) verses the oil pressure indicating port. A system wide pressure drop if their was one was compersated by my bootyfab oil pressure adjusting screw which was set to maintain a system pressure of 60 PSIG.
If both turns "over the top" is equal to .5 LB pressure drop and then the final 90 degree into the block to the left galley is equal to .25 LB then I would have to assume a 3/4 PSIG reading lower just getting to the left side galley. Not including the pressure drop thru the length of the block. I always likened oil pressure drop to voltage drop in a wire carring a current the length of wire creates a voltage drop due to resistance and length ( just like hydraulic pressure) at the end of the run, same with oil pressure just a lower reading at the left end galley (which is furthest from the oil pump) due to size of galley verses resistance to flow.

The only way to know for sure if the bypass line is working would be to measure the right side galley at both ends with and without the line.

Absolutely in agreement with you there!! Thats why I suggested I'd may install a flowmeter with a one way check valve when I install the engine in the chassis. When we all install the valley oil pass line in the block we all assume the valley line flows oil back to the mains because everyone told us so. As I was playing around with the engine the thought occured to me that the oil could flow either way with the valley line mod (Convential thought is front to back "at the over the top" but it possibly could go the other way, back mains to front if there is a lower pressure "at the over the top" that I myself don't know for sure.) I didn't feel like pulling the blower manifold to disconnect the valley line. When I do the chassis install I have to pull the manifold to weld a crack so I'll have access then.

Jeff

1980_Cj7

01-01-2007, 10:05 AM

Jeff, so what kind of numbers did you get with the nitrous? Or did you already post them and I'm missing them somewhere?

909 Ft lbs torque. 867 HP
Torque outran the horsepower.

Hmmm, I was only 102 HP high with my guess of 1111.

jeepsr4ever

01-01-2007, 11:14 AM

Jeff we plan on making some dual and triple filters that wont filter in series but in parralell. I will let you know. We are moving in another big cnc mill in a couple of months so that will help with new product.

82Waggy

01-01-2007, 11:20 AM

jeepsr4ever

01-01-2007, 11:55 AM

Your right he did but if I remember the specifics he didnt measure it for very long or was it he didnt have extended rpm's. At any rate for their not to be a difference between the front and the back on pressure makes me think the test wasnt completed correctly. You cant have the same pressure on two ends of a hose with holes in between if your feeding from only one side.

Blown7

01-02-2007, 05:44 AM

You must have some pretty excessive flow through the lifters combined with a flow path restriction to see that kind of pressure drop from a 60 psi source, or your gauge feed line was kinked.

Not to shrug off your thoughts or sound sarcastic but I don't know or actually care what the flow is thru the lifters. I carry alot of oil in the sump and system and to see a pressure drop is a good indication the oil is going somewhere, doing its job.

Ken Parkman found no measurable loss at the aft end of either galley during his dyno run with no valley bypass line.

Don't know anything about Ken Parkmans findings,
I'm only reporting mine.

As I've said before it doesn't matter to me a bit if someone does the valley oil line mod or not and I wouldn't recommend it to be done just to do it. ( My findings I wouldn't consider to be conclusive to be the end all to the valley oil line mod discussion.) It just doesn't hurt and I found my oil pressure to be the same and was predictable according to the laws(sic) of hydraulic manifolds. Basically it turns the oil galley into a double ended fed manifold.
(Just as predictable as the manifold on the fuel side of my Nitrous system, that is when the fuel solonoid opened the fuel pressure would drop because the fuel injectors where injecting fuel and it wasn't a closed circut anymore. Fuel pressure dropped by half 6 PSIG to 3 PSIG). And true it is one more thing that can fail due to vibration or fatigue but for me I don't mind having one more thing to check.
The question I would ask myself is "Are all the big name AMC engine builders doing it? I.E. Lewis, Atkins, Booth etc.
And are they doing it? I really don't know.
But if they are they are, they know something I don't or did a lot more experimenting.

Jeff

82Waggy

01-02-2007, 06:18 AM

Guy's,

If leakage through the lifters is causing the pressure drop, please explain how running a parallel line to them from the same feed source is going to push more oil to the bearings instead of through the lifters.

"You cant have the same pressure on two ends of a hose with holes in between if your feeding from only one side."

Sure you can, so long as feed rate exceeds the rate of leakage.

What is being suggested here is that the flow rate through the valvetrain is exceeding the feed rate from the pump.

jeepsr4ever

01-02-2007, 08:35 AM

82Waggy

01-02-2007, 09:02 AM

No 82 it is not being suggested it has been proven. The lifters and the cam bearings exceed the pump quickly when your above 5000rpms. This is due to many factors. Calculate the bearing surface areas at a 30% parasitic loss, add in the diameter of the pushrod holes and add in the diameter of the lifters and then you start to see whay the last three main bearings raoch in a AMC V8. You really have to earn this type of knowledge before you can make suggestions off another persons quote and be anywhere close to accurate.

I do not disagree that it is possible for the valvetrain leakage to be exceeding the feed rate from the pump. Note Blown7 claims a 7-8psi drop on the left side (no bearing losses on the left side).

What I disagree with is that a parallel bypass line is the proper solution to this problem. How do you bypass an excessive leak in this way? All this could possibly do is backfeed the leak. You need to slow down the leakage through the valvetrain.

And what is it about another persons testing that contradicts your assumptions that is invalid, that he only went to 6500rpm?

On the subject of the bypass line, I have always said that the only way it could flow any oil is if there is a restriction in the primary gallery that results in a pressure drop from one end to the other. So all you have to do is prove that. Unfortunately, Blown7's points of measurement and testing has not eliminated other possible reasons for his findings and is therefore inconclusive.

If the problem is not a restriction but excessive flow through the valvetrain, A bypass line will not help force more oil to the bearings - it will only help flow more oil through the leak.

jeepsr4ever

01-02-2007, 10:28 AM

82Waggy

01-02-2007, 10:59 AM

I will say that when you take a source point and move the source to two distinct points in any given cavity with pockets (or leaking holes) in between you end up flowing more evenly out of those holes than you will by just filling the cavity from one point.

Perhaps, but how do you explain away those that have found no measurable pressure drop from the pump to the back end of the gallery's?

You guys keep thinking of this as a free stream open ended system. It is not. So long as feed pressure exceeds the rate of leakage it acts like a closed pressurized system.

If Blown7 is losing that much pressure through the valvetrain I would think you would want to address that problem directly, instead of trying to bypass it. Slow the excessive leakage through the valvetrain and you increase pressure to the bearings. On the other hand, he still has in excess of 40-50 psi at the back of the galley, which is more than enough to feed the bearings.

Without knowing what the feed pressure is at the head of the gallery's, you can't conclude that there is a pressure drop from one end to the other. A pressure drop measured from only two points, one at the pump and the other at the end of the gallery's could very well be caused from something further upstream (closer to the pump) from the head of the gallery's - and if that is the case then a bypass line won't help.

Now, should you be able to show by pressure readings that there is a significant pressure drop from the gallery feed manifold to the back end of the gallery, then I will go along with the potential for a bypass line to help, but only if it does not simply increase flow through the valvtrain. Hell, I'll put one in myself! I have not varied from that postion in any of my discussions on the subject.

jeepsr4ever

01-02-2007, 12:02 PM

No I understand the closed system arguement however this is not a classic example of a closed system. Even though their is a plug on one end it does have a progressive rate of oil usage through the sytem for each RPM increase and the oil passages can only handle soo much flow per viscosity number before the pump cavitates. I cant vouch for the test you have heard of by the devil is in the specifics

1. The test was done with extra capacity at the pan
2. The test included tight tolerance bearings and I do believe bushed lifter bores (dont quote me on that)
3. The RPM used wasnt sustained for more than 20 seconds (I remember asking Ken if he had held his engine longer at higher RPMs and he said no...I believe 20 second was more than he had (IIRC))

Now if you want to discuss what happened after 20 seconds you should go back and start adding up the bore diameters, add up the a chart of calculated loss over PSI and consider RPM and then then you have a argument against the valley line but until then you havent gone as far as we have here and our test reveal the line has its place in some engines.

82Waggy

01-02-2007, 12:22 PM

And so long as pressure exists, feed rate exceeds leakage rate and therefore acts like a closed system.

You site all kinds of potential problems that may happen after twenty seconds at high rpm if you pump out the pan and unport the pickup, none of which can be solved by the bypass line.

Afraid I just can't follow that logic path. The best solution to the potential problem you site is to decrease flow through the valvetrain.

In order to prove that a valley bypass line will do something, you must show a pressure drop from the feed manifold to the aft end of the gallery (the two points at which you intend to connect the bypass line). If no pressure drop, no flow through the bypass line can result. Have you done that test? Anybody?

What we do have is one test that shows no measurable pressure drop from the pump to the end of the right side gallery, and another that is inconclusive. Things that make you go hmm.

jeepsr4ever

01-02-2007, 01:02 PM

No we have tested it and lots and lots of other things. Their is a reason we do not sell the valley line but it does do its intended work. I can dig up old dyno sheets and numbers but I dont know that i will find all the data I need to support the argument after the fact. This stuff was a big deal to us about 10 years ago..maybe longer. It gets rehashed every couple of years and it is interesting to see people's reasons on both sides of the fence. I wont even suggest the oil line to anyone calling for tech support or in person but I think your on the right track you just need to dig further and uncover the real numbers yourself before you completely understand the line and what it actually does in real life.

But lets take a step away from the line and get back on topic here.

Blown7

01-02-2007, 04:34 PM

But lets take a step away from the line and get back on topic here.

Well I guess it was me that started it #-o , by naming ol 82 by name and firing him up mentioning the bypass line. One of the reasons again and I will say no more about in the future is the engine carries alot of oil in my sump and -12 lines so I'm not worried about unporting the sump pickup so I can afford to be generous oiling my top end. Or allowing bleed off. My thoughts for doing this is for oil cooling the valvetrain. ( I guess I can't shake off my roots in aircooled aircraft engines.)

Jeff

Blown7

01-02-2007, 04:47 PM

And on another note.
I reviewed some other notes today, (good thing I have paper notes, my computer notes are gone after some theives made off with my office computer, speakers, and printer last Wednesday nite,Thursday or Thursday Nite or Friday while I was at the Dyno). And to top it off they didn't steal 30K of Snap on tools just stole my most prized possesion my big Bulltear sticker!

Anyways Greg was super conservative in the engine timing department he used only 26 degrees of all in timing when we where running on car gas. Then on Nitrous he backed out 6 degrees for a total of 20 degrees. I wonder what it would have pulled if we got closer to 28-30 on gas and 24-26 on the bottle.??
Well those guys are known to be conservative and that I like.
I don't think I'll change the timing but as they say once it's in the chassis then the fine tuning can begin.

Jeff

Mudrat

01-02-2007, 04:48 PM

I guess I can't shake off my roots in aircooled aircraft engines.
Jeff
Speaking of that - see your PM :t:

amcjeepman

01-03-2007, 07:01 AM

Absolutely Great information.
I love this site.
Thanks again.

82Waggy

01-03-2007, 07:26 AM

:grouphuuug:

Blown7

01-14-2007, 05:52 AM

Well the engines finally home and in a hanger, I haven't begun disassembly as I have three aircraft annuals going on at the same time right now. But I will start a little this week.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan14.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan14-3.jpg

Some pics of the exhaust ports.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan14-5.jpg
Number 2 cylinder

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan14-4.jpg
Number 3 and 5 Big exhaust gasket leak at the Siamese flange side and bottom. Not quite sure what the stain is coming out of the threads and nut at the stud. Leaking coolant? Or extra assembly oil that I painted over. Also interesting is the soot flow in the port, faster in the middle than at the dog leg.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan14-2.jpg
Number 1 cylinder

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan14-1.jpg
Number 4 and 6 cylinders
Notice the Header gasket leak. I'm going to remachine the header flange as opposed to just belt sanding them.

Final bill for the Dyno 5,643.00 dollars, I almost fell over. Still don't have my paperwork or ECU files yet as Gregs computer and laptop aren't cooperating.

Jeff

Blown7

01-14-2007, 06:13 AM

I'm really interested to see what the Clevite bearings look like.

Jeff

Blown7

01-15-2007, 05:19 AM

Pics of the headers.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan15-3.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan15-2.jpg

Lousy NAPA header paint, I bead blast and send the headers out to be Jet Coated.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan15-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan15.jpg

Jeff

jeepsr4ever

01-15-2007, 08:36 AM

Jeff thanks for sharing your build with us! :t:

1980_Cj7

01-15-2007, 01:21 PM

Blown7

01-17-2007, 07:43 AM

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan14-4.jpg
Not quite sure what the stain is coming out of the threads and nut at the stud. Leaking coolant? Or extra assembly oil that I painted over.
Jeff

Jeff, could that stain be Never Seez? I used Never Seez on our exhaust manifold bolts and ended up with stains running down that look exactly like the one in your picture. Wouldn't think you'd be using it on head bolts, but it sure looks like our Never Seez stains.

Well I didn't use Never seize on the bolts, so that can't be it, but it could be oil from the head as i repainted (touched up the paint after I primed the oil pump with the valve covers off.
so it could have been trapped oil in the nut.

Jeff

Blown7

01-17-2007, 07:50 AM

Ok I finally started disassembly yesterday didn't have my camera with me and today I'm stuck home doing A/C paperwork. So it will be tomorrow nite at the at the earliest that some new detailed findings and pics will be presented.

But upon removal of the Crown/Bulltear timing cover and inspection of .................................................. .............. (well lets just keep the suspense up for a day).
I'm sure some discussion will evolve.

Jeff

Blown7

01-17-2007, 07:53 AM

Jeff thanks for sharing your build with us! :t:

No problem, just trying to be helpful for all the help I've gotten here. And if it helps someone else well, I've saved them some time and money.

jeff

Blown7

01-19-2007, 04:59 AM

Ok after 3 hours of uploading pics in photobucket here we go...
First pic

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-6.jpg

The assembled timing gears, chain and drive gear.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18.jpg

The welded cover that Greg welded after the cam bolt went thru it. notice where the bolt still made a witness mark as the weld was too high, but it helps to make a reference to match the cam gear.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-1.jpg

The adjustable oil pressure stem I made to control the pressure and keep it constant. I won't use it on the engine, this was just for the dyno.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-2.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-5.jpg

The 534 plate and the relation to the adjustable stem.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-3.jpg

The water pump side of the timing cover.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-7.jpg

The dizzy gear, absolutely no wear.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-9.jpg

The is the dizzy installed in the timing cover, this is where things get interesting.............

Jeff

Blown7

01-19-2007, 05:05 AM

So when I first got the cover from MC, I found that the dizzy gear ID which was big enough (it had .0015 clearance), didn't fit over the driven gear shaft. In my effort to assemble this engine I just hit the shaft with a right angle grinder and ground the shaft down to fit.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-13.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-12.jpg

What I was doing was masking a flaw in the manufacturing of the Crown cover.

So I put the cover on a surface plate and took some measurements.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-20.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-21.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-22.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-23.jpg

In one plane the hole alignment between the dizzy bore and the pump shaft is off .007 thousanths. Not major but enough to suck. Maybe the cover was distorted by welding. But even when it was pristene the dizzy wouldn't fit.

Jeff

Blown7

01-19-2007, 05:18 AM

Then the thing I had noticed first when I removed the timing cover was the wear on the cam gear.
THANKS MC for the "FLOWER" thing.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-28.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-29.jpg

I roughly estimate the wear on the drive side of the gear to be .010 thousanths. Notice the burr at the bottom of the gear.

Jeff

Blown7

01-19-2007, 05:24 AM

I figure the gear is getting oil but not enough, or as MC said the gear was wearing in, well could be, but I have two oil holes that don't do a thing. Or the wear is from "loading the oil pump" with the high pressures when I started playing with constant pressure on the dyno. We did blow a filter with high pressure.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-26.jpg

Notice in this pic that the 1 oclock and 7 oclock hole get oil.

But these two holes at 12 oclock and 6 oclock couldn't get oil if they tried

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-27.jpg
so I'll chuck the new gears in a lathe and cut a small grove between all the holes.

Jeff

jeepsr4ever

01-19-2007, 08:34 AM

Boy Jeff that is a big nasty hole!

82Waggy

01-19-2007, 08:45 AM

Looks like the non-driven side of the gear is showing wear as well. Were these gears a matched set?

I would have thought the standard oiling holes would provide sufficient oil to the gears, assuming there was flow of course.

Wear looks to be centered up on the drive teeth OK.

What do you think caused this, excessive oil pump load, insufficient lubrication, misalignment? Improper dizzy alignment might explain the wear on both sides of the drive gear - the binding causing the excessive wear on the driven side - but you would think it would not be so critical at just .007" out.

Interesting.

PS: Oh, maybe the driven gear on the dizzy not being true due to die grinding the shaft is the problem?

Goose

01-19-2007, 12:59 PM

how many hours on the dyno??

That seems like very extensive wear for what 15 hours?

(And yes I do realize I am the master of pointing out the obvious) :!:

Blown7

01-19-2007, 04:27 PM

Looks like the non-driven side of the gear is showing wear as well. Were these gears a matched set?

Yep from our good friends here at Bulltear.

I would have thought the standard oiling holes would provide sufficient oil to the gears, assuming there was flow of course.

Me too, but I didn't even think to look, or think about the 12 and 6 o clock holes and how they would get oil. Thats one of the things I hope MC manufatures in the new billet timing covers is the ability to see when priming the oil pump by hand the oil coming thru the gear oil holes.

Wear looks to be centered up on the drive teeth OK.

What do you think caused this, excessive oil pump load, insufficient lubrication, misalignment?

Good question, for which I don't have an answer. I wasn't at the dyno when Greg removedthe timing cover to weld it. But he did mention the cam gear was worn,he attributed it to the cam bolt backing out, but I don't think or know for sure not having seen it. I know a couple of times we spiked the oil pressure
over 100 PSI for a few seconds.

Improper dizzy alignment might explain the wear on both sides of the drive gear - the binding causing the excessive wear on the driven side - but you would think it would not be so critical at just .007" out.

Interesting.

PS: Oh, maybe the driven gear on the dizzy not being true due to die grinding the shaft is the problem?

I'll get some pics of the coast side of the gear, but there is no wear there or evidence of even touching.

The rest we can all think about because for right now I just don't know,

Jeff

1980_Cj7

01-19-2007, 05:11 PM

The distributor drive gear issue IS very interesting. It's obvious how the oil reaches the hole that is in the oil groove. You wonder how it gets to the hole in the keyway, unless the key doesn't fill the whole depth of the keyway. But how would it ever get to those other two holes??? I wonder if this isn't part of the seemingly common problem of dizzy gear wear.

Blown7

01-19-2007, 06:19 PM

Blown7

01-19-2007, 06:29 PM

I also noticed at the .487 dimension the shaft has a burnish to it, where the bore for the oil gear driven shaft rubbed on the casting, as if, when Crown reamed the hole they didn't go all the way thru leaving a ridge.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-24.jpg

This pic isn't close enough to show, but where you see the shaft exiting the casting at the oil pump side is where the burnish is. Also the hole for the shaft isn't centered in the relief.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-8.jpg

Jeff

1980_Cj7

01-19-2007, 06:49 PM

The distributor drive gear issue IS very interesting. It's obvious how the oil reaches the hole that is in the oil groove. You wonder how it gets to the hole in the keyway, unless the key doesn't fill the whole depth of the keyway.

Correct the oil works its way down the oil groove, around the chamfer under the cam bolt washer then into the keyway. The cam woodruff keys don't interfere with the keyway hole.

But how would it ever get to those other two holes??? I wonder if this isn't part of the seemingly common problem of dizzy gear wear.

Could be, I never thought of it when I assembled the gear to the camshaft but I've got a fix now (cutting a groove).. :t:

Jeff

I'm just looking at an old factory dizzy drive gear here. The two "dry" holes are really close to the champfer. It wouldn't be too hard to file little grooves from the holes to the champfer, parallel to the keyway and oil grooves, but only in as far as the holes, and not the whole length of the gear like them. That would be another possible solution for us less fortunates who are lathe-less, ha, ha.

1980_Cj7

01-19-2007, 07:35 PM

jeepsr4ever

01-19-2007, 10:20 PM

Jeff nice mod on the gear. I wonder when you noticed the distributor was hard to install. It could have been that you tweaked the entire casting after welding. The wear you see could also be part of the Ni plating where they missed a spot that was supposed to be masked. Wear like that isnt caused by 356 cast aluminum. That is a A2 steel shaft on the oil pump gear and will only be scuffed by a surface harder than 27RC. The Ni comes in at 35RC. (Something to ponder)

Blown7

01-20-2007, 03:48 AM

Matt, I noticed the dizzy was hard to install when I still had the timing cover on the bench back in Aug last year. I had made the bottom of the magneto drive from the bottom of the mag housing to the end of the shaft where it drives the oil pump. As Don Zig wanted 600 dollars to manufacture it, I decided I could make one cheaper. The mag was originally a SBC drive. I left the SBC mag shaft long initally as I didn't know the finished overall length. I finished the overall length leaving .020 thousandths shy from bottoming out on the oil pump shaft drive lug. Then I installed the shims and gear with the pin. As I had already installed the 534 plate on the pump bottom I didn't want to disassemble the pump to remove the shafted oil pump drive gear to turn the end down in the lathe to fit the assembled dizzy gear so thats why I just sanded the oil pump drive shaft in place to fit the dizzy.

So to make a long story short, the mag dizzy didn't fit the oil pump shaft even when the timing cover was pristine and brand new. I just didn't think the timing cover could be manufactured incorrectly right out of the box. And it only occured to me over the last week with the thread on the AMC board.

Jeff

Blown7

01-20-2007, 04:11 AM

Kinda like this. A couple licks with a hacksaw to get things started, then some clean up with a file, and viola (in spite of my earlier bottle of sake)! Something else to add to my lessons learned list for building 401's.

https://home.comcast.net/~rwsr50/ComcastOnlineStorage/Distributor_Gear_007.jpg

True, even though I myself have been goofing with these engines over the last 30 years, I'm still learning as the new replacement parts seem to have issues all their own. I wish I could have saved the original timing cover but it had to be destroyed as all the attaching bolts had corroded and seized in the cover and couldn't be removed ( I had to cut the cover in pieces to remove it and heat what was left of the bolts to remove them from the block)

Jeff

Jeff

Blown7

01-20-2007, 04:22 AM

Another thing I noticed while cleaning the timing cover is the timing chain was hitting the cast (oil sling ridge for lack of a better name) at the top of the crankshaft hole. I'll get better pics tomorrow. Look at the upper left of the pic. The timing chain was chewing the corner away to a depth of approximately 3/32 of a inch.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18.jpg

Jeff

jeepsr4ever

01-20-2007, 06:45 AM

Gotcha! :wink:

1980_Cj7

01-20-2007, 06:55 AM

82Waggy

01-20-2007, 07:51 AM

I'll get some pics of the coast side of the gear, but there is no wear there or evidence of even touching.

Jeff

Maybe it is just a reflection in the oil, but the lower photo of the drive gear seems to show some scuffing on the "coast" side.

Binding not being the case, and even contact showing on the drive side, I'd say you had too much load for the hardness of the gear - or no lubrication at some point, maybe at start up.

82Waggy

01-20-2007, 08:07 AM

True, even though I myself have been goofing with these engines over the last 30 years, I'm still learning as the new replacement parts seem to have issues all their own.

Jeff

I hear you on that after all the problems I had with the Crown dizzy gears. But, I think AMC missed this problem right from the factory. That gear I modified was the original factory gear, and it too had no provisions for oil getting to two of the four holes.

A couple minutes and a couple grooves and you have DOUBLED the oil flow to your dizzy gear.

I dont know what you guys are looking at but I see no way that oil gets around the front of the gear under the retaining washer to those new grooves. Oil only comes forward through the one broached cut opposite the woodruff key and exits through one hole out the side of the gear - there is no path for oil to circulate around the front of the gear. Those extra holes are for tooling - never meant for lubrication.

Also, don't forget that more leaks in the system means less pressure.

BTW: though obviously used, neither of the two of my over 100k milage stock gears show the depth of wear exhibited in Blown7's gear.

Blown7

01-20-2007, 08:22 AM

Waggy, the oil circulates around the chamfer, under the washer.

Jeff

Blown7

01-20-2007, 08:25 AM

BTW: though obviously used, neither of the two of my over 100k milage stock gears show the depth of wear exhibited in Blown7's gear.

Thats why I'm concerned, I shouldn't have this kind of wear running 50 gallons of gas thru the engine. Unless I really loaded the oil pump. Or some other explaination I just don't have.

Jeff

82Waggy

01-20-2007, 08:42 AM

Waggy, the oil circulates around the chamfer, under the washer.

Jeff

Well, I'm sitting hear staring at a gear and washer. You think that was the intention of the chamfer, eh? Guess I'm gonna have to assemble the snout of my cam and put a closer eyeball on it as I don't remember if the two non-keyed holes hang off the front enough to allow oil to get too them, nor do I remember if the woodruff key blocks the hole under it.. Hmm.

jeepsr4ever

01-20-2007, 08:46 AM

Jeff I think it may be reasonable to blame the mis-alignment for the wear. If you have more oil to the gear it is possible for less wear however these gears do need to find a pattern and you just may have found the pattern your set needs to live on. Worst case scenario is that the gears didnt get enough lube. This could be caused by alot of different variables but I do agree that those slots will undoubtably improve the lubrication of both gears. After our phone conversation it got me pondering taking a air grinder to every single (65pcs) camshaft gear we have in stock. :idea: :t:

82Waggy

01-20-2007, 08:58 AM

OK. I can see that the crown in the slot for the woodruff key may allow oil to get to that hole, I guess.

You don't think there would be enough windage in there to coat the gears as well?

I would also think that these helical cut gears could deal with a good bit of misalignment.

I dunno Jeff, too much oil pump load?

1980_Cj7

01-20-2007, 11:52 AM

Matt, you need to modify one of your timing covers so there is a window in it so you could observe the oiling going on while an engine is running and really see what is going on. Of course, the oil would probably get sprayed on the inside of the window right away and keep you from seeing anything.

The other thing that could be done is to take an old cam and thread a fitting into the oil hole in the circumferance of the front journal, then attach a line to it and feed some pressurized oil to it with a timing gear, fuel pump eccentric, and dizzy gear all installed on the front of the cam. You'd see pretty quickly where the oil was coming thru.

I'm just looking at a cam here. The snout of the cam has a champfer on it too, so between it and the champfer on the dizzy drive gear, they form a "V" and provide about twice the volume for the oil to flow thru that the champfer on the gear alone would provide. For a minute I thought the champfer on the cam snout might be deep enough to let oil get to the two "dry" holes, but I don't think it is.

jeepsr4ever

01-20-2007, 01:25 PM

Amc camshaft gears dont sit down all the way so they have oil to all the oil holes. Sorry Jeff it may be another issue.

Blown7

01-20-2007, 03:44 PM

MC, I think I have a guess after thinking about it today, I know when I primed the engine the first time once the oil pump got its fill of oil my drill would bog down, and after releasing the drill chuck, the oil pump shaft would turn back by itself (counterclockwise) about 4 full turns, and with the original Hamburger dual in series oil filters I probably had alot of resistance caused by the pump itself then add the adjustable oil pressure screw and spiking the oil pressure a few times, the gears might have been trying to push 100 ft lbs of torque (my W.A.G) to spin the oil pump. After removing the timing cover it was covered in oil, so I think oil flow for lubing the gears wasn't my problem. High resistance caused by the oil pump was.
My best guess for now.

Jeff

1980_Cj7

01-20-2007, 04:10 PM

Amc camshaft gears dont sit down all the way so they have oil to all the oil holes. Sorry Jeff it may be another issue.

Ah ha. Didn't think to put all the pieces on the front of the cam and check that. That explains it. Couldn't imagine all those engineers at AMC could have missed something so obvious.

Well that's good news, Matt. At least now you don't have to modify 65 dizzy gears, ha, ha.

82Waggy

01-21-2007, 07:51 AM

Amc camshaft gears dont sit down all the way so they have oil to all the oil holes. Sorry Jeff it may be another issue.

That makes more sense. The chamfer alone is not much area for flow.

82Waggy

01-21-2007, 07:56 AM

Blown7

01-21-2007, 10:34 AM

Soooooo MC was correct, the holes are open to recieve oil

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan21-4.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan21-1.jpg

And as I surmised late yesterday lube doesn't seem to be my problem. I think alignment could be plausable as when you get into gear theory and pressure angles, pitch depth, etc. alignment and clearances can prematurely make gears fail. However I cannot prove or disprove or accurately measure what those dimensions are on my engine with this cover unless I bandsaw the cover up to allow me to take some measurements. I don't feel that motivated at this point to make all those checks. I'll wait and install the new cover with new gears and see where I'm at then. I believe my problem was excessive oil pressure resulting in the cam gear trying to turn the dizzy/oil pump shaft beyond it's designed operating torque input.

I will make a insert of Aluminum to install in the washer or Silicone the washer side to keep a oil tight seal under the cam gear.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan21-2.jpg

Jeff

Blown7

01-21-2007, 10:47 AM

I also have two slots on the cam timing gear (at approximatly the 9 and 3 o clock positions that bleed some oil off to lube the timing chain but I don't think they are bleeding off too much (sorry for the lousy pic)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan18-33.jpg

Jeff

82Waggy

01-21-2007, 10:54 AM

You also have the drainback from the lifter valley getting slung all over the place.

AMX69PHATTY

01-21-2007, 11:41 AM

Hello, may I ask a "silly" question ?

Did your Rod Bearings have the Oil Squirter Hole notches or no ?

( duck to avoid the items thrown at me )

Blown7

01-21-2007, 02:04 PM

Hello, may I ask a "silly" question ?

Did your Rod Bearings have the Oil Squirter Hole notches or no ?

( duck to avoid the items thrown at me )

No need to duck, a reasonable question. I have Carrillo rods which have no provision for the notch. Nor did I add any.
Maybe this week I'll get into the bottom of the engine.

Jeff

73hornut

01-21-2007, 04:01 PM

Blown7

01-22-2007, 06:09 PM

Oh boy look what I did....

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan222006017.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan222006018.jpg

Guess I got motivated.....

Jeff

jeepsr4ever

01-22-2007, 06:46 PM

Way to go Dr, Jones you pulled its heart out :?:

ironman_gq

01-23-2007, 01:05 PM

when that thing chewed through how much coolant ended up in the motor and how long was it therebefore you noticed. :shock:

Goose

01-23-2007, 01:25 PM

Looks to me like an Intentional viewport...Bet that would be some good video.. Holesaw anyone?

Blown7

01-23-2007, 01:36 PM

when that thing chewed through how much coolant ended up in the motor and how long was it therebefore you noticed. :shock:

About a minute after the water pump stopped turning.

Jeff

Blown7

01-24-2007, 05:39 AM

Ok getting ready to check oil flow thru the gear

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan242006003.jpg

Jeff

1980_Cj7

01-24-2007, 06:09 AM

1980_Cj7

01-24-2007, 06:15 PM

Jeff, do you have the Rollmaster with the Torrington bearing or the one without the bearing?

I was thinking again last night. Sometimes I think I'm way over-thinking this stuff, but I'm paranoid after our experience with the first rebuild. I was looking at the path from the oil hole in the front of the cam.

Fuzz has the Rollmaster without the bearing, and posted a pic here a while back showing the recess that runs the whole way around the timing gear to give the oil a path from the cam hole to the groove running thru the gear along the cam. Our Rollmaster has the bearing, and although there is a recess, it sure doesn't look very deep.

Nevermind Jeff. I went back and reread that old Rollmaster thread, and saw that you did state you don't have the bearing. I also see Fuzz posted pics of gears both w/ and w/o the bearing and the oil recess looks the same on both.

Now, get some video of the oil flying on yours. Crank up that...drill. In fact, give the drill a shot of that NOS.

etjeep

01-25-2007, 01:57 PM

Jeff,
I am a newbiew here, this is awesome tech! Thanks for sharing! I have been lurking, enjoying your build, =D> and I did not think I had anything to contribute, but wanted to through this out since I have not seen any mention of it with your (lack of) lube at the dizzy gear. This is something I added to my 401. When I did the oiling modification to the galley on my 401, I also tapped the timing cover case and added the oil line to the timing chain/dizzy gear externally. Don't have any performance results to report yet, but I am wondering if you considered this in removing material by making the slots bigger on the cam gear Here is a pic in the link http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1466010537069564115eWFeQY . Thats just a coat hanger next to the tube so I could get my bends correct.

My feeling, I could be wrong, it can't hurt to bath that chain and gear in oil! :lo1l:

Mudrat

01-25-2007, 03:58 PM

etjeep, wht size line are you looking to run and from where?

etjeep

01-25-2007, 10:29 PM

etjeep

01-25-2007, 10:32 PM

Mudrat,
My pic did not upload, you need to go to the link. It is supplied from the oil pressure sending unit, just tee off.
Eric

Blown7

01-25-2007, 10:56 PM

Well after 3 hours of uploading about 5 minutes of oiling videos here goes. Lube wasn't my problem. I realize now that if all the oiling paths are correct the cam gear can flow copius amounts of oil.

Specicifications;
1. Engine was rotated and stopped at 50 degrees BTDC.
2. Oil viscosity, Valvoline 20-50 Racing oil.
3. Used the original oil filter adapter with the bypass.
4. Modified a 1515 NAPA Gold filter.
5. Plunger for oil pressure was stuck initally,( I just jammed in a plunger I had laying around. I didn't care for maintaining a constant pressure, just to see the flow and document it with the fuel pressure gage.
6. The best I could measure the amount of torque required to turn the shaft at 15 PSI was 32 in/lbs of torque required.
( before the last video, I couldn't document it as I had to do this with both hands. No helper. )

First vid just getting started. The oil still has water in it, thats why it's milky but actually gives a good contrast to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIPw9NjKdfM

Second vid, my drill motor chuck kept on loosing up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xP38DCBgUo

Third vid, drill motor was starting to heat up and I eventually burned it out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8a4gk78U60

Forth vid I used my big 20 year old Rockwell drill, its shakey but I had to hold the big drill in one hand and the camera in the other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ZFJrA19IQ

Conclusions
1. If all the oil paths are aligned you need no additional oiling mods.
2. The torque reqired initally is significant, the higher the pressure the harder to turn as evidenced by the counterclockwise rotation on releasing the drill at higher pressures above 70 PSI.

3. More observations folks?

jeepsr4ever

01-25-2007, 11:02 PM

Jeff we did the window before and that is exactly what is looks like :idea:

Blown7

01-25-2007, 11:24 PM

MC your my hero!
Now I see why no other oiling mods are required.

Here's how I determined the torque required to turn.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan252006001.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan252006002.jpg

Jeff

etjeep

01-25-2007, 11:39 PM

Damn I wish I saw your flow test before my mod!

82Waggy

01-25-2007, 11:52 PM

More oil. Gotta get more oil to everything!!!

Stock oiling system bites. Must modify!

Squirt more oil on EVERYTHING!

:razz:

jeepsr4ever

01-26-2007, 08:07 AM

Blown7

01-26-2007, 08:36 AM

Jeff you should see the amount of inch lbs it takes with a 534 or a 626 with a good filter. You will also find a 5inch lb drop using the HRC gears. :wink: I have a shit ton of data compiled on the AMC V8, probly enough to write a set of encyclopedias. :idea:

MC do you have some of those numbers? And more importantly what are the cam drive gear and the dizzy gear rated for before failure?
Would a Bronze dizzy gear be better?
And will the HRC gears work in the new billet cover?

Jeff

1980_Cj7

01-26-2007, 09:45 AM

I'm interested in hearing about these gears too. I'm ready to order another set. Was going to order last night in fact, but got too busy. Maybe it's good I didn't now.

jeepsr4ever

01-26-2007, 10:55 AM

Bronze distributor gears for AMC V8s are probly one of the biggest misunderstood parts ever sold for this motor. Bronze gears were invented to use in billet and custom ground camshafts that have a different hardness (harder) than most off the shelf cams. Bronze gears were originally designed for Chevy motors where the price of the distributor gear was a hell of alot cheaper than the price of the cam (on Chevy motors the camshaft gear in an integral part of the camshaft). In fact the only benefit that bronze has over any other AMC distributor gear is that it can be used with any cam gear and it will find its pattern quick and repetetively even if you dont match up the teeth (not that you need to). Some racers blindly throw a bronze gear into their AMC thinking thats the better solution. They are right that the bronze gear will desinegrate without taking the cam gear out but the bronze gears are very soft. Bronze is a soft alloy that machines like butter and has a great integrity to it. What racers and high revvers should be usinng is a set of hardened steel gears. When you hit those high RPMs the load on the distributor gear is often over 150in lbs and that puts alot of stress on the teeth. You need a fast moving lubricant with a decent viscosity or you will shear the oil film layer quickly and start to eat away at your gear.

Chances are Jeff you had a couple of things going on. The first was camshaft walk and the second was you were trying to use a 20w50 on a motor that wasnt broken in and past that pony stage. I say pony because that is what we call the stage where you are over 5000miles (on a conventional car) or 50hrs on a race motor. the first 10 mns of break in is where you will find most of the setting in and wear patterns inside the engine. This is the most crucial time and will set the pace for service life. Breaking your camshaft in properly also sets the bearing wear to the journals for the crank, rods, cam and sets the pushrods and rockers to the prospective duties. The distributor gear and camshaft gear also need to be broken in right. Usually this means using a little cam lube or grease to help them set a good pattern right off the bat. Instead of that we soak them in a oil called vactra2 or DTE-14 they are great high zinc oils with a neutral PH (gears ship out that way).

The fastest cam and distributor wear you will find is when you accelerate quickly. Using a very heavy oil has its disadvantages when it comes to flow out the front of the gear however their is a happy medium for higher revving engines and that was found about 5 years ago and the weight was 15w40.

:wink:

1980_Cj7

01-26-2007, 11:15 AM

What are the HRC gears?

jeepsr4ever

01-26-2007, 01:36 PM

Look in the oiling section or the E-store you will see them.

1980_Cj7

01-26-2007, 03:53 PM

Only thing I could find is HRC oil pump gears. I thought you were saying there were HRC distributer gear sets. So you only have the one set of the distributor gears for sale? Are they manufactured by Crown, the brand like we got before?

Mudrat

01-26-2007, 04:22 PM

Which line? The line to the timing cover was small. IIRC 1/8", its the copper line in my linked pic above. I don't think you need much to keep it lubed plus you want to keep that line small so you don't starve the rest of the system.

OK, I'm a bit more sober (not):roll: and figured it was the copper line and not the coat hanger :wink: ... But WHERE are you taking the source from for an external oil line? Off the pump housing? The Oil filter? Oil cooler? Oil pressure sender plug? Curious minds want to know ...... :t:

fuzz401

01-26-2007, 05:36 PM

Curious minds want to know ......

you will get in trouble :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Mudrat

01-26-2007, 05:38 PM

9 lives :!:

fuzz401

01-26-2007, 05:46 PM

with this down to 8 8)

Mudrat

01-26-2007, 05:48 PM

Closer to 3 I think :oops: Been around the world a bit and took a few chances :t:

Blown7

01-26-2007, 06:37 PM

Cool MC gotcha :t:
BTW these where the Bulltear gears.

And yes 150 in lbs sounds like a good number for highest torque that could easily strip these gears.
20 yrs ago I had a 1986 waggy that would strip the cam gear everytime I floored the 4 barrel until I checked the oiling circut and found I had very little oil on the gear.

Ok so after all is reassembled a thinner oil will be used.
Thanks for you input buddy. :!:

Now onto the bottom end.

Jeff

jeepsr4ever

01-26-2007, 10:13 PM

Jeff while I am burying my head into a cnc I am constanly checking your post. Funnest post ever!! I have a 18" monitor on top of a CNC mill here that I get to jump on here even when we are busy so I should get frequent flyer miles. :?:

Oh and I still love that east coast accent...you guys sound like gansters. Being Italian makes me feel at home :?:

Blown7

01-27-2007, 07:31 AM

( In my best threating low volume East Coast mobster voice), I hope that computer sits on the CNC machine thats making the billet timing covers :t:

Jeff

Goose

01-27-2007, 11:24 PM

'Das Right MC, uddawise youse can jus fogeddabout it.

jeepsr4ever

01-28-2007, 03:31 PM

'Das Right MC, uddawise youse can jus fogeddabout it.

Aww geez Goos your bustin my balls heare.

Mudrat

01-28-2007, 04:05 PM

Aww geez Goos your bustin my balls heare.
Bustin' WHAT?
We know you don't own them anymore - youse gots urself a womanz now!!! :shock: Been there and still feeling the pain :smile:

jeepsr4ever

01-28-2007, 05:41 PM

Aww geez Goos your bustin my balls heare.
Bustin' WHAT?
We know you don't own them anymore - youse gots urself a womanz now!!! :shock: Been there and still feeling the pain :smile:

very funny Pat...Geegee is a great gal. Dont believe all the boobies you see on the internet they arent real :?: :?: :?: :?:

etjeep

01-29-2007, 07:55 AM

WHERE are you taking the source from for an external oil line? Off the pump housing? The Oil filter? Oil cooler? Oil pressure sender plug? Curious minds want to know ...... :t:

Not the best pic I know, but you can see what I did was replace the elbow at the oil pressure sender with a tee, the timing cover oil line is sourced from the run of the tee. Hope this helps.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2150671830069564115BFUqlu

Blown7

01-29-2007, 03:37 PM

yes, remove that line and cap the top, you won't need it.

Jeff

Mudrat

01-29-2007, 04:14 PM

very funny Pat...Geegee is a great gal. Dont believe all the boobies you see on the internet they arent real :?: :?: :?: :?:
I don't believe anything I HAVEN'T seen - like the pics from your Mexican excursion 8) I still think you holed up for the week with "the 'ol lady' just to take a break from making Jeep stuff :?:

Mudrat

01-29-2007, 04:15 PM

yes, remove that line and cap the top, you won't need it.

Jeff

So Jeff, you're saying don't take the feed line from there or that a direct injection from there isn't worth it??

fuzz401

01-29-2007, 04:19 PM

hint
the cover with a hole in it and oil coming out the gears oil hole

Mudrat

01-29-2007, 06:37 PM

hint
the cover with a hole in it and oil coming out the hole
Are you talking about Blown7 or MC's Mexican adventure??? :shock: :mrgreen:

Blown7

01-30-2007, 05:09 AM

yes, remove that line and cap the top, you won't need it.

Jeff

So Jeff, you're saying don't take the feed line from there or that a direct injection from there isn't worth it??

Direct injection isn't necessary, if all the oil passages work as designed the added line just isn't needed. See my vids the gears have plenty of oil.

Jeff

etjeep

01-30-2007, 02:52 PM

Jeff,

Your vids clearly indicate additional oiling mods are not needed (assuming the oil passages are clear). If I had I seen your vids before I added this line, I would not have wasted my time and $30 (IIRC).

So I understand your comment not to add this line because it is not necessary. Do you think the relatively small flow rate at this location would be enough to cause lack of oiling elsewhere? I don't have flow data, but I can't see a couple extra squirts on the chain hurting. Its easy enough to cap though, even though its already installed.

Getting back to the cam gear wear, Jeff said ‚ÄúI believe my problem was excessive oil pressure resulting in the cam gear trying to turn the dizzy/oil pump shaft beyond it's designed operating torque input.‚Äù 900 Hp may be the limit on the stock oil pump shaft, wonder if a stronger shaft material is warranted.

There was another Q I wanted to ask you.....I cut out the middle of my valley pan gasket http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1465998733069564115yGMllG
to do the other galley oiling modification. Was I dreaming or did I hear somebody say they would leave the valley pan gasket off due to the massive quantity of oil in the valley. If I was dreaming, please ignore, otherwise I would be interested in learning why. This thread has been excellent tech.

Blown7

01-30-2007, 05:29 PM

[quote="etjeep"]Jeff,

Your vids clearly indicate additional oiling mods are not needed (assuming the oil passages are clear). If I had I seen your vids before I added this line, I would not have wasted my time and $30 (IIRC).

So I understand your comment not to add this line because it is not necessary. Do you think the relatively small flow rate at this location would be enough to cause lack of oiling elsewhere? I don't have flow data, but I can't see a couple extra squirts on the chain hurting. Its easy enough to cap though, even though its already installed.

Well I'm certainly not a expert but the issues as I see them for the added line are:
1. Vibration fatigue of the line over time.
2. The extra oil could always be used for better items like your bearings.
3. The timing cover area has more than enough oiling.

Getting back to the cam gear wear, Jeff said ‚ÄúI believe my problem was excessive oil pressure resulting in the cam gear trying to turn the dizzy/oil pump shaft beyond it's designed operating torque input.‚Äù 900 Hp may be the limit on the stock oil pump shaft, wonder if a stronger shaft material is warranted.

The 900 Hp isn't the problem, or the material of the oil pump shaft. Its the TORQUE required to turn the pump if the oil pressure is too high whether it be at idle or Wide open throttle actually I was talking about the gears themselves.

There was another Q I wanted to ask you.....I cut out the middle of my valley pan gasket http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1465998733069564115yGMllG
to do the other galley oiling modification. Was I dreaming or did I hear somebody say they would leave the valley pan gasket off due to the massive quantity of oil in the valley. If I was dreaming, please ignore, otherwise I would be interested in learning why. This thread has been excellent tech.[
/quote]

Most people leave the valley pan and either cut it, or install the valley line close to the engine block to prevent interference. I cut the valley pan myself but on the reinstallation I will use the SCE gaskets and a crankcase EVAC system. You have to use the valley pan if you don't have a intake pan (sucks oil into PCV valve)

Jeff

Blown7

01-30-2007, 05:33 PM

So moving on the pushrods are fine
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan302006001.jpg

The valve geometry is correct
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan302006002.jpg

Upon removal of the oil pan clean, clean, clean, except for undrained oil. And all the little bottom end parts are still where they need to be.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan302006006.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan302006003.jpg

Maybe I can get to the bearings tomorrow.

Jeff

etjeep

01-31-2007, 03:43 PM

Jeff,
Thanks.
Looks good.

Blown7

02-10-2007, 05:21 AM

Well it's been a few weeks, and I have removed all the bearings for checking and after inspection I have rolled in all new bearings. When people say wash that block after machining they mean it. I washed, pressure washed, washed with gun barrel brushes, oil galley brushes, washed until I thought I could drink clear water out of it and still I had some debris stuck somewhere. It ended up in the bearings, but then again thats what they are for (besides a foundation for oil). No damage to the crank so I'm good to go.

Stats
Clevite 77 bearings, copper back, standard size.
.003-.0035 clearance.
All bearings show high load (but thats to be expected with Nitrous, and remember I had oil pressure issues in the beginning.
Id like to have a choice of High Performance bearings but what choices have we got for our AMC's? ACL or Clevite. MC should pursue a new vendor.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006001.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006004.jpg

Connecting rod bearings, number 8 cylinder. The oiling hole is not standard I installed it because I have drilled conn rods for floating pins.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006014.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006010.jpg

Number 8 journal.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006015.jpg

Notice the rub on the crank from the Carillo rods. No big deal. No temperature discolor just a rub, it'll wear in.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006018.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006014.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006016.jpg

Bottom cap of number 8 conn rod, notice the rub on the cap from the crank cheek.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006022.jpg

Number 5 main journal.

More pics comming.

Blown7

02-10-2007, 05:28 AM

The full set of mains, the oiling hole has been drilled out to .343 diameter.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006001.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006009.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006012.jpg

Thrust sides

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006008.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006007.jpg

Number 5 main journal

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006022.jpg

Back side pressure marks
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006024.jpg

Jeff

jeepsr4ever

02-10-2007, 09:59 AM

:-| With the amount of power you were putting out you would expect to see some wear but the wear on the thrust is massive. I wonder if we arent seeing some dirt from assembly

82Waggy

02-10-2007, 10:33 AM

Dirt followed by bearing babbit material.

How do the cam bearings look?

Did you clean the crank oil passages out good too?

Blown7

02-10-2007, 05:26 PM

:-| With the amount of power you were putting out you would expect to see some wear but the wear on the thrust is massive. I wonder if we arent seeing some dirt from assembly

Well MC you would think so, however the thrust faces on the bearings are not coated. And actually only one side shows a little rubbing.
This is the only side that has a little rub. Thats the problem with Clevite bearings they don't coat the thrust side.

Yes crank was cleaned well too, however I did alot of machining on the block, drilled the main galley holes bigger etc.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006007.jpg

Jeff

Blown7

02-10-2007, 06:00 PM

Conn rod bearings.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006016.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicFeb32006015.jpg

Goose

02-10-2007, 10:52 PM

How many hours on the motor?

:shock:

Blown7

02-11-2007, 01:39 AM

5-7 hours just dyno time. Hard to be specific about.

Jeff

Goose

02-11-2007, 12:00 PM

That supports my theory.. Most of the wear an engine experiences happens in the first 500 miles..after that (everything else being good) the wear is very slow. bearings etc .. I guess this may be one of those duhh yea we knew that kind of moments.. But I always felt that guys who swear by "tight" engines really didnt understand that by the time its "broken in" It's no tighter really than one built looser..

What do I know though.. I have 2 crescent wrenches (AKA Speedwrench) and twelve hammers in my toolbox.. And an unhealthy fascination with acetylene. :?

1980_Cj7

02-11-2007, 01:45 PM

Wow, and I thought our bearings looked bad after only 300 miles. Of course we weren't making the kind of power Jeff is, and also had detonation problems from the machine shop installing the timing gear wrong.

jeepsr4ever

02-11-2007, 02:46 PM

It almost looks like crank flex Jeff. I see what may appear to be chatter on one of the thrust bearings. It looks like you knicked the crank with a rod bolt on one of the rod bearings. I would also add that your oil viscosity looks to be too high for the bearing clearances. I also think the bearings that show the pitting could have been poorly plated.

82Waggy

02-12-2007, 07:06 AM

MC, Do you think the pitting is from poor plating? Looks to me like he just had a bunch of grit that got embedded - maybe babit material that got knocked loose by dirt.

Also looks like the crank was draggin around some debris or a burr on the crank that got into the copper - maybe from a poorly chamfered hole in the bearings or crank.

I don't think the bearings themselves are faulty.

Clean that sucker, install new bearings, and go again!

jeepsr4ever

02-12-2007, 10:12 AM

It was either dirt or a knick from installing the rods. I am going with the dirt theory. Check your end play Jeff

Blown7

02-13-2007, 06:03 AM

It was either dirt or a knick from installing the rods. I am going with the dirt theory. Check your end play Jeff

Yep MC it was dirt, or more specifically cast iron. I actually inspected the bearings with a high power magnifying glass and found cast iron specks. I did alot of drilling on the oil galley passages. And I cleaned the passages to what I thought was spotless, obviously I did get it clean enough. It almost impossible to nick a crank with the Carillo rods as the bolts are not part of the beam assembly. If you did nick the journals which I did inspect one would find a straight line across the journal like a chisel mark from the bearing parting line. The bolts go on thru the cap side at assembly. I think some crank flex was happening as this is about all the horsepower the stock crank can handle. I definately think I am at the horsepower limits of the engine.
As for one bearing loosing the plating I think the cast iron chips and a combination of substandard Clevite plating caused it.

I wish that some vendor would step up with some high performance AMC engine bearings.
Clevite offers several grades of bearings for other engine applications but only one grade for AMC's.

Heres a some pics of Carillo parts.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006012.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006010.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c96/Blown7/newpicJan312006001.jpg

And then the thought of the bearing clearances being set up for the viscosity of 20 weight oil using the Machinerys Handbook.
Check out the section on Journal bearings MC. interesting info there.

So I'm still researching bearing options I was talking to someone that said Federal-Mongol was making them.

Jeff

Goose

02-13-2007, 08:20 AM

82Waggy

02-13-2007, 08:31 AM

I don't think there is a bearing made that will endure having iron filings ground through them. Clevite bearings are used on a lot of high powered stuff without problems - I don't think they are at fault here.

I think Federal Mogul and Clevite bearings are the same part these days.

As far as I have been able to find, AMC bearing makers include Clevite, ACL, and King. Don't know if there is much significant difference between them, aside from the ACL's being the full groove type.

Blown7

02-14-2007, 04:35 AM

True the iron filings aside, as all bearing won't hold up to that, my understanding is Clevite makes different grades of bearings for the usual SBC/BBC, Hemi, Ford, etc from standard to high performance unless the application is AMC then we only have one option standard grade.

And according to Ken Parkman he had a chat with a Clevite tech who told him Clevite does not recommend their bearings in a high performance- high horsepower application.

King bearings where considered years ago the bargain basement, bottom line cheap replacement not to be considered for a high performance application. Today I don't know.

ACL bearings I wouldn't even consider for this application because a full groove bearing has half the ability to carry a load. They won't work at over 900 ft lbs of torque.

All bearings have a copper backing it's the coating that makes the difference.
In my engine the coating all showed high loading, (aside from the contamination) and inspection by a ball mic showed a average .0002 squish.

For MC the crankshaft has a .006 thousanths endplay.

Jeff

Blown7

02-14-2007, 04:45 AM

You know.. I have read the concept of crank flex in this thread.. but you know I just read right over it and didnt think about it, till just now.. Crank Flex??? yikes.. thats enough to scare the wadding out of ya..(I mean if ya think about what happens when that crank decides to stop flexing and break... :shock: :-|

Yep it's very scary to think of cylinder pressures in the 400 to 600 PSI range on Nitrous pushing the connecting rods down into the crankshaft and trying to break it in half, or trying to push it out the bottom of the block rather than turn it. That's why orders of vibration frequency have to be controlled with some voodoo, black magic crankshaft balancing.

Jeff

Jeff

82Waggy

02-14-2007, 09:19 AM

True the iron filings aside, as all bearing won't hold up to that, my understanding is Clevite makes different grades of bearings for the usual SBC/BBC, Hemi, Ford, etc from standard to high performance unless the application is AMC then we only have one option standard grade.

And according to Ken Parkman he had a chat with a Clevite tech who told him Clevite does not recommend their bearings in a high performance- high horsepower application.
Jeff

I appreciate the quandry, but I really wonder if they would have looked a lot better if not for the debris. The ones that don't actually show as much damage seem to show normal break in polish - granted they may not last as long under your high load application as a higher grade bearing might.

At the machine shop I hang out at they build a lot of high power nitrous (1500hp plus) drag motors, as well as a myriad of turbocharged and blower stuff. Yes, they use high tech coated bearings but they also change them out pretty often.

How about a normally aspirated Pontiac making 928 hp on the dyno? It has Clevites in it.