Crank Key

[Mudrat]

sWell,
Finally got some time and pulled the front cover off to check the timing - looks like the gears are lined up, but found a little problem with the crank key.

http://members.cox.net/mudrat/360-Crank/crank-key-1-sm.JPG

Larger Pic (http://members.cox.net/mudrat/360-Crank/crank-key.JPG)

Thanks Fuzz #-o
What would I do without you? (http://members.cox.net/mudrat/360-Crank/New-woodrift-sm.JPG)
But to set the record straight - I never had a whole key.

[ironman_gq]

put a new one in and solve all your problems. :mrgreen:

[fuzz401]

glad to see you recived my message

[jeepsr4ever]

:idea: Mini-me (key)

[ironman_gq]

how does one become so short?

[Mudrat]

Well,
Got the dizzy gear off finally theyu used some TIGHT key's on that!!! But it looks like the crank has turned into the 'mini-me' key a couple of degree's. I've put some serious pressure with pri bars to get the crank gear to move without luck. Looks like I need to take the crank clockwise and the gear counter clockwise just a bit to free it up (most likely this is the cause of my timing issue between the crank gear and the balancer slipping.) But the problem is HOW!!!

I know I should hand it back to the shop that built it, but don't want the headache of winching the Heep on the trailer and toting it 40 miles :roll: for them to tell me it's past 90 days (DUH!!! I've been gone the last 13 months!!!!!)

So, how can I do the counter rotation deal to free up the crank gear off the mini-key to get it off to change the key? :blackeye:

I'm still taking pics and going to see what compensation I'll get from them!!! Which will probably be nothing :angry4:

[jeepsr4ever]

GEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZ

[Mudrat]

So, how can I do the counter rotation deal to free up the crank gear off the mini-key to get it off to change the key? :blackeye: :angry4:
GEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZ
And the answer is ...? :wating: :-|

[jeepsr4ever]

Piece of wood...hammer

[Mudrat]

Piece of wood...hammer
What size hammer? :idea:

[Lifted79CJ7]

BFH of course.

[82Waggy]

Use a gear puller

[ironman_gq]

put a big pair of channel lock pliars around the crank snout so that the teeth catch the key but be sure to not gouge the snout and get someone else to hit the gear in the right direction with a brass drift or piece of wood. If it dont work try to get the key to come out. with it being so short you might be able to catch the end of it and get it to come out. GOOD LUCK with it

[Lifted79CJ7]

I did mine the same way as ironman is suggesting and it worked well. Again, just make sure not to gouge.

[1980_Cj7]

Bestest, safest, and easiest way would be to get one of those great crank turning nuts MC makes. See the E-Store.

http://www.bulltear.com/catalog/images/2cranknut.jpg

http://www.bulltear.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_35&products_id=122

You could use that to hold the crank with a big wrench while you "bump" the gear with a hammer and block of wood.

The nut is a great tool to have anyhow. It was invaluable to me when I was degreeing the cam, and it also worked great to tap the tight Roll Master timing gear on.

[82Waggy]

Man, don't beat on the gear or grab the crank with channel locks!

111!!!

Go rent a gear puller from an auto parts store - usually fully refunded upon return.

[1980_Cj7]

Yes, I know there are specific instructions with the Roll Master timing set that caution against hitting against anything but the hub when seating the gear. I'd be very careful of where and how hard you hit on the gear. Probably would be best to just use a puller on it.

[ironman_gq]

I think he was saying that the gear has turned some so that the slot for the key doesn't exactly line up with the key and the gear is stuck that way. a puller will only pull the gear tighter onto the key. It has to be turned so that the slot lines up with the key so it can come off

[1980_Cj7]

I think he was saying that the gear has turned some so that the slot for the key doesn't exactly line up with the key and the gear is stuck that way. a puller will only pull the gear tighter onto the key. It has to be turned so that the slot lines up with the key so it can come off

Yes, I understand about the gear having turned out of alignment with the keyway, but if the key has made new indentations off the side of the keyway like it appears in the pics, it should still pull straight off, albeit with some difficulty I'm sure. It would be good to get the key back in the keyway, but I'm just not sure how much pounding the timing gear will take.

[Mudrat]

Bestest, safest, and easiest way would be to get one of those great crank turning nuts MC makes. See the E-Store.

You could use that to hold the crank with a big wrench while you "bump" the gear with a hammer and block of wood.

The nut is a great tool to have anyhow. It was invaluable to me when I was degreeing the cam, and it also worked great to tap the tight Roll Master timing gear on.
Yup would be great - but I don't have enough of the woodrift key sticking out - that's the problem!!!! And that's also the other problem - tight Rollmaster gears #-o

[Lifted79CJ7]

Bestest, safest, and easiest way would be to get one of those great crank turning nuts MC makes. See the E-Store.

http://www.bulltear.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_35&products_id=122

You could use that to hold the crank with a big wrench while you "bump" the gear with a hammer and block of wood.

The nut is a great tool to have anyhow. It was invaluable to me when I was degreeing the cam, and it also worked great to tap the tight Roll Master timing gear on.

I have one of these also and they are perfect, but as stated, he's got no key sticking out to grab. I just used channel locks with a rag to not scratch it to get the bolt off (before I had the Bulltear nut). Sorry, I misread the post (stupid reading too fast!) and didn't realize that you were talking about the gear was stuck on there. Try a couple of M-80's. 8)

[Mudrat]

It would be good to get the key back in the keyway, but I'm just not sure how much pounding the timing gear will take.
Me neither! :shock:

But the gear puller would be pulling on the chain links :-|

So either way I'm damned if I do and screwed if I don't 111!!!

[1980_Cj7]

I had to pull a Roll Master off when I was degreeing our cam and had the same concerns about having to pull on the chain. There's just no other way you can get a puller on it. Anyhow, it came off and didn't damage anything. I didn't have the key problem though either.

Good point on not having enuff key sticking up to engage the crank turning nut. I didn't think of that.

Wonder what would happen if you hit down on the key with a drift as closed to the timing gear as you can get? I'm wondering if that would rock the front end up further out of the keyway in the crank. I know it works if you hit on the very end. The arched belly of the key rocks it right out. Problem is you can't get to the very innermost end. If you could pop that front end up, maybe you could get a hold of it with something and wiggle it out.

[Mudrat]

Wonder what would happen if you hit down on the key with a drift as closed to the timing gear as you can get? I'm wondering if that would rock the front end up further out of the keyway in the crank. I know it works if you hit on the very end. The arched belly of the key rocks it right out. Problem is you can't get to the very innermost end. If you could pop that front end up, maybe you could get a hold of it with something and wiggle it out.
Popp'n ain't an option. I got the gear off - took an old rake handle and whacked the crap outta the gear - handle is FUBAR but the gear is OK, rotated it enough to use the gear puller - so it's apart. (pix when the I-server comes back on-line).

Now - the key, as you saw, is almost flush with the crank. I thought the same as you, take a punch and tap the back, raise the front and pry it outta there. Well, it ain't rock'n. :smile:

Tried a punch on both ends - no luck. Tried taping a screw driver under the outboard side - no luck, bent the tip :oops:
Tried tappeing the key from the front to back with a punch - no luck.
Tried to pry the key from the back with a socket extension as a fulcrum - got sparks, no luck.

Came in and grabbed an Adult beverage - LUCK!!! :!:

The good news is, it's not going any deeper either!!

Still only have about 20Thou of key showing. And working on how to get the key out :-|

[1980_Cj7]

Stubborn little bugger!

How about a little heat, like just a propane torch so you don't get anything too hot, then try tapping it out again with the punch.

Or, how about a cut off wheel in a Dremel tool. Make a cut down the middle of the key parallel to the key, not even necessarily the whole way thru, just something to relieve the apparently really tight fit.

[82Waggy]

It would be good to get the key back in the keyway, but I'm just not sure how much pounding the timing gear will take.
Me neither! :shock:

But the gear puller would be pulling on the chain links :-|

So either way I'm damned if I do and screwed if I don't 111!!!

A puller like a Proto with the proper jaws won't touch the chain.

[Mudrat]

OK, the torch, a punch and a 16oz ball peen and it's out!!

This is the difference in keys, roughly 3/32 of an inch.

And the small one had some RTV looking stuff as well as being magnatized?? :-|

http://members.cox.net/mudrat/360-Crank/Key-compare-5-sm.JPG

Start reassembly after lunch :!:

Thanks y'all.

[1980_Cj7]

A puller like a Proto with the proper jaws won't touch the chain.

Got a pic of that puller? I'm just curious as to what it looks like. I had a devil of a time finding any puller that had jaws that would fit between the block and the backside of the timing gear, and then the chain was out over the gear teeth, so the puller jaws were against the chain. Does the Proto hook in the holes in the timing gear or something? But on second thought, the crank gear has no holes, just the cam gear.

[jeepsr4ever]

That looks like a Chevy key there Pat

[82Waggy]

A puller like a Proto with the proper jaws won't touch the chain.

Got a pic of that puller? I'm just curious as to what it looks like. I had a devil of a time finding any puller that had jaws that would fit between the block and the backside of the timing gear, and then the chain was out over the gear teeth, so the puller jaws were against the chain. Does the Proto hook in the holes in the timing gear or something? But on second thought, the crank gear has no holes, just the cam gear.

Don't have pic (its at the shop) but it is basically a bar on a threaded shaft that the arms slide onto. The arms are curled on the gear end and reach around the chain to pull on the gear. The arms do not hinge on the bar like most gear pullers so they dont slide off the gear.

[Mudrat]

That looks like a Chevy key there Pat
If so, it's way to short!!!

Got most of the front end back together today =D> The new key fits TIGHT, but looks like the slippage was about 15* between the crank gear and harmonic balancer!!!! :shock:
so reassembly continues and hopefully wil correct the timining issue - if not, I'm into a dizzy :oops:

[Mudrat]

Well, I'm reassembled --- mostly. Still need to put the RAD & fenders back on :roll:

Now I don't think this one will slip and slide :mrgreen:
New key on the left - - old key on the right (yes it's in there!!)

http://members.cox.net/mudrat/360-Crank/Key-compare.JPG

OLD KEY

http://members.cox.net/mudrat/old-key-gear.jpg


NEW KEY
http://members.cox.net/mudrat/360-Crank/Aint-slippn-1.JPG

[ironman_gq]

drill a small hole in one end of the key and tap it for a machine screw thread the screw in and either pull on the screw or keep screwing until the screw pushes the key out of the slot. Best way I can think of to do it. It's just like turning the key into a puller to pull itself out. just make sure not to drill too deep and get into the crank! :t:

[Mudrat]

drill a small hole in one end of the key and tap it for a machine screw thread the screw in and either pull on the screw or keep screwing until the screw pushes the key out of the slot. Best way I can think of to do it. It's just like turning the key into a puller to pull itself out. just make sure not to drill too deep and get into the crank! :t:
Didn't think of that, good idea :t:

I'll give it a go next time I run into this problem again. For now the heat and drift punch did the deed and the new key and sprocket is assembled, covers on, and I just need to finish putting the front end together - never enough time in a day.

[fuzz401]

dam chevy's

[Mudrat]

Well the new key is in, the gears are lined up, the engine is reassembled, RAD is reconnected and I still have 50* for timing :(:

I did notice my dizzy was hard to turn by hand and I can't get the vacuum motor to suck the ADV plate. Replaced the vacuum motor - still won't move - so it's time to replace the frigg'n thing and see if THAT's the problem. And I did re-read the vacuum porting (http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11689) article again - I'm at 50* (initial) @750 RPM without vacuum :shock: !! (thanks again Jedi Master AMX69PHATTY)

Which creates more questions ...
I see MC added an HEI distributor on Oct 9 for $150. E-Bay has the 'Dragon Fire' billit dizzy for (buy it now) @ $170 --- Any other sugestions?

Q1 - with the one wire hook up - what does that do to the ignition module that fires the old stick???

[1980_Cj7]

50¬?, WOW! Something sure ain't right.

Are you sure your timing marks are correct? Did you verify that when the marks are on TDC, the number one piston is actually at TDC? And your timing light is on number one, right?

This isn't meant to insult you or anything. I know more than one person that got the banks mixed up and was thinking number 2 was number one. Happens to the best of us.

[ironman_gq]

Gets rid of the old Ignition box entirely. you just run the one wire right to the dizzy and start her up.
Are you sure that your balncer didnt shift on itself. I've hearn of the outer ring with the timing mark spinning on the central hub part. All that holds them together is a strip of rubber from what Ive seen

[Mudrat]

50¬?, WOW! Something sure ain't right.

Are you sure your timing marks are correct? Did you verify that when the marks are on TDC, the number one piston is actually at TDC? And your timing light is on number one, right?

This isn't meant to insult you or anything. I know more than one person that got the banks mixed up and was thinking number 2 was number one. Happens to the best of us.
No problem – even I’M thinking I’M stupid or something!! :oops:
Timing marks are on a new nickel cover from Bulltear
Balancer doesn’t look like it’s spun, no puching in the rubber and no rotation (according to the paint), and #1 is the front DR side cylinder. :wink:
Firing order has been checked at least 8 times with the book (TSM, Haynes and Clymers). Checked for vacuum leaks and have all new hoses.

50* and not getting it close to time is what prompted me to tear down the front end where I found the wrong woodriff key (see previous pix) and the crank was rotated about 3* in relation to the cam from the crank gear over riding the key (3* crank is 6* cam).
Set #1 piston (front driver’s side :idea: ) to TDC and the valves to closed, lined up the "dots" on the timing chain sprokets and installed the new key and a double roller timing chain and sprockets. Butt load of assembly lube on the gears and chain, and the cam / dizzy drive gears. Set the rotor to #1 on the cap lined up the oil pump drive and installed the dizzy - this is where I found it turned kinda hard - not as easy as I think it should. But when I went to set timing, with no vacuum, I'm at 50* at 750 RPM (with vacuum I'm at ~35*). I'm REALLY not understanding this one - never had this problem before.
I'm thinking I really screwed up when I rebuilt the dizzy last year (yes, it's been that long!! :smile: ), but the motor runs at that amount of advance and doesn't seem to over heat any more? :-| This is where it was when I broke in the cam as well?? :-| :-|

[1980_Cj7]

So with the vacuum hooked up, you are getting less advance? That is really weird. You should be getting more shouldn't you? Do you have another disributor you could swap in just to see if that makes any differnce?

When you brought No. 1 up to TDC, did you look to see if the timing marks were lined up? Maybe that balancer did slip.

[ironman_gq]

Is there any way that when the dizzy was rebuilt something was put in backwards or upside down? I've never had to rebuild one so I don't know if this is possible. The vacuum advance retarding the timing sounds like its pulling from the wrong side of the dizzy shaft.

[Goose]

Hey Rat? This may be a dumb question but.. It's running right? and it's not doing any wierd detonation type hard to start etc?? If those conditions are true.. I'm wondering about the timing light or someting else...50* is a buttload of timing and I really wouldn't expect it to run well at a true 50* initial..

this is just the gentle "rememeber to check the basics post"
(too bad they dont have a "tap, rack and slap drill" for clearing this kind of jam)

[1980_Cj7]

So Rat, what's going on with your timing? Did you ever figure anything out? Inquiring minds want to know.

[jeep_man_401]

50* is a buttload of timing

HA HA HA :oops:

[Mudrat]

Hell, I don't know to all questions. It was running 2 weeks ago last I saw it. Been pulling 10's and 12's the last couple weeks. :oops: :smile:

Still waiting the new spark stick from Matt. And I may be needing a 360 balancer - just in case.

I should be done with this install by the end of next week [-o< then I'm taking a few days off. But not that many, my Father-in-law passed last Monday and I'll be heading to San Diego over Thanksgiving to make sure my mother-in-law is doing OK.

[Mudrat]

OK,
Well here's the update. After the last post, I wound in in SDGO for a week helping my mother-in-law navigate the VA bullsh!t paperwork. Was home about 4 days then off to Washington State just to get in the middle of, "The worst storm in decades" according to the local Seattle news folks. I got home Sat before Christmas.

While I was gone, got a new fire stick from Bulltear and got it put in last weekend. Some tweaking and twisting and the Heart of the Beast is running at 12* initial and 36* all in at about 1700 RPM. Still idles a bit rough - not like I thought the 8600 would run and I think there is a vacuum leak somewhere because the timing light is erratic and jumps around at 700 RPM. That I think I can find it but running the beast in my shop is a breathing hazard - I don't have an exhaust line running outside #-o So when I can roll it outside I'll take care of that.

Right now I'm having a T-case issue. Putting a TeraLow 4:1 kit in a D300. New thread is here DRIVELINE (http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7906)

The other new thing is my daughters new boyfriend. I met him on Sunday and he worked with me on the Heep Christmas Eve!! I think I like this guy :mrgreen: AND, he's a professional welder, Sprint and Arena Racer :t:

I might get some milage outta this one :?:

[Goose]

Hah Hah.. Confucious say you keep girl child's boyfriend in garage unda Jeep.. pretty soon you gonna have one pissed off Daughter..

[1980_Cj7]

What's that old saying? You're not losing a daughter, you're gaining a Jeep mechanic, and welder, and all his tools, and all his equipment...or something like that.

[Mudrat]

Soemthing like that - maybe. Their just dating now so I don't have his full attention :shock:

[woodfar51]

Looks like what has happened is someone used a piece of key stock instead of woodruff key. If all else fails Use a cutoff wheel to cut it out. Have to be careful not to enlarge woodruff slot.

[woodfar51]

When I replaced my timing set I was playing with dizzy out of engine. It was really hard to turn and found that the weights are held be a pin . The pin had slipped up under the mech. weights and that made it turn hard.