360 tow motor advice

[steviesj20]

Need some opinions from you guys.

Background: I am a novice shade tree mechanic so be easy on me. I have a 1990 GW that I am using to tow my travel trailer. The 360 engine was rebuilt approximately 9,500 miles ago by a previous owner and has good oil pressure. I assume the pistons are stock. It has an Edelbrock cam, lifters, timing chain, intake, Howell tbi, stock manifolds, single 2.5" exhaust with Magnaflow cat/muffler. The engine is good for everyday driving but needs more power on the towing side. The hills are hurting me. I am running stock tires and 3:31 axle ratio. (I know the gears stink for towing but I need the best of both worlds).

I intend to put an Edelbrock efi system on the engine.

Should the cam be changed to something different?

Would you do something different to the cylinder heads?

Would shorty header help? I don't want the vehicle too noisy (wife) for highway use.

Please throw some opinions my way
Thanks!

[tufcj]

I really don't think you'll see much difference between the Howell and Edelbrock EFI systems as far as power. Shorty headers and a dual exhaust with an X or H pipe may help some. The Edelbrock cam is pretty good for towing.

The gears are your big problem for towing. Personally, I'd swap to about a 3.73 gear with stock tires for towing. With the other improvements, you shouldn't see much drop in mileage when not towing.

Bob
tufcj

[Dusty]

why change to the edelbrock EFI? there is a marginal gain at best if any over the Howell TBI and for your size motor and hp level what do you hope to gain?

An HEI distributor might help.

Your heads are fine dont change em there all pretty much the same unless you want a mild .5 compression jump then go source a set of ubber hard to find 291 heads with the small chambers

long tubes like doug thorleys would help more than shorties for torque. I like single 3" but single 2.5 cant be hurting you horribly.

how are you hurting? not enough rpms when kicking down to second gear? if so then the cam would be what i would be attacking. the performer cam is great for a cj with a 304, annemic for a 360 and down right wrong for a 401. so id be looking at a cam swap after fiddling around with some headers and maybe a new chip for the howell based on the new headers :-| IMHO the edelbrock is a marginal towing cam offering little gain over stock, the lift leaves alot to be desired

Gears like tuf said would be worth considering but that all depends on how everything else is designed.

what speed do you drive on the highway? what speed when towing? consider 65 mph as average cruising RPM 55 mph your towing speed.

31" stock tires and 3.31 gears your highway RPM
@ 45 mph is around 1700 rpm in direct and 2500 in second gear
@ 55 mph it is around 2100 rpm in direct and 3050 in second gear
@65 mph you cruise at 2500 and in second snap to 3600

31" stock tires and 3.73 gears your highway RPM
@ 45 mph is around 1950 rpm in direct and 2800rpm in second gear
@ 55 mph it is around 2350 rpm in direct and 3400 rpm in second gear
@65 mph you cruise at 2800 rpm and in second snap to 4050 rpm

Analyze those numbers and determine where your motor needs to make your peak torque. i always use my kick down point... second gear number for getting me close like my cherokee chief makes peak torque around 3800 but peak hp at 4800 but at 2400 which is my cruising rpm i still have 3/4 of my peak torque plenty of rpm for when i do openthe 4bbls and kick it down a gear.

the edelbrock cam in a 360 is probably peaked out with torque around 2200 rpm and all done rpm wise by 3800 so you are really limited when you do kick down into second gear by how much of the engine rpm and torque you will be able to use.

You arent driving a diesel with 800 ft/lbs torque so remember there are limitations to what a motor can and will do, designing things around the rpms you plan to use will yeild better results

[1980_Cj7]

How much experience do you have at towing? I'm not trying to be smart, it's just that I have found a trailer puts a tremendous drag on a tow vehicle. I'm always impressed/depressed at how much a trailer slows down even my 1 ton Chevy crew cab duallie with a 454, which is known to be a torque monster. This is especially true if you have hills in the mix. I'm just trying to save you from putting a lot of time, work, and money into an engine only to find out it didn't make much difference.

For instance, I thought my old Ford F250 with a 360 wasn't getting the job done, so I upgraded to the Chevy 454. I was shocked at the lack of difference there was between the two.

[ironman_gq]

you could always find a 401 and put your time and money in that and not have your vehicle down while you build the motor then it would be a simple 1day deal to swap the new motor over and be back on the road enjoying your new power :lo1l:

[steviesj20]

Well I certainly have done things wrong with this engine - I will admit this from the start - pee'd a lot of money away without knowing what I was doing.
What I don't like about the Howell tbi/cam setup is the crummy idle. I have even taken this rig up to Howell (great folks by the way) and we worked on it for several hours. Idle is not consistent. I attribute this to the 110 lobe center on the cam - seems like it confuses the computer at idle. This system has frustrated me.......
For reference I have a 86' J20 with a customefis tbi system and stock motor and of course lower gears. Truck runs awesome - should have come from the factory this way.
The trailer I tow is 22' long and about 4K loaded down with stuff.
We just got back from a week long trip through West Virginia and the hills are tough there. Two mountains had me down in 1st gear and accelerator matted to the floor.
On the interstate I towed from 55mph to 62 mph - 11 mpg and 8.5 in the mtns. Interstate grades weren't too bad but back roads killed the GW. Often crested in 2nd gear and 50 mph.
The GW has 29" tires (235/75/15).
I already own the Edelbrock system..... I'll be selling the Howell system in the future.
The ol' girl just seems to fall on her face at the slightest hint of a hill and higher rpms.

[FuzzFace2]

If you dont like the cam and think it the issue with the EIF then go for a good RV cam.
But as others have said change the gears to a min of 3.73
My 02 Durango I ordered with 3.92 just for towing my race car & trailer got to be pushing 5K and I have had to drop down to 2nd gear for some mnt. in PA across rt80. Yes I do have OD but pulling the trailer I don't even check MPG because I want to cry but would say 6-8 @65-75mph, flat down hill up hills it is just like the big rigs slow and steady.

To have a rig to tow and get good MPG both with & with out trailer not going to happen. Mine w/o trailer hiway I get 16mpg
but around town/hiway 10 - 12mpg even with OD.
Dave ----

[JERSEYJOE]

There is no replacement for displacement. Sell the 360 and do a 9 to 1 compression 401. I agree the Edelbrock cam is weaker than some of the others like the Crane and Engle grinds. With the 401 you will not believe the difference. I also agree chuck the gears and go 3.73

[steviesj20]

I understand that a lot of this issue is the gearing but at this point I want to concentrate on the receipe for pairing the correct camshaft with the efi system. I believe that if I can make the engine run efficiently (breath properly) that it will have sufficient enough power for what I want to do with it.
One thing I did do properly with this GW is to install an aluminum crossflow radiator. The Jeep ran no warmer than 205 degrees on the longest of hills. The remainder of the time the engine ran in the area it runs in with no load. Those radiators are really good! The Jeep has a 195 degree thermostat.

So given the parameters I have to work with - what would you change the camshaft to? I will need some torque and mix of high rpm to get over the hills.

Here is a link to another forum that you can see what I am pulling.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=92534

[JERSEYJOE]

I am also on the IFSJA froum.

I like the Engle Cam 5054 H grind. It's very similar to the old Sig Erson High Flow. This works well on a low compression 360 or 401.

[ironman_gq]

I also like the engle cams I put one in my 304 and it made a huge difference in my low end power. The cam I replaced was the clevite version of the performer cam. I had a roughe idle that I couldnt clear up and was lacking in low end. Call the guys at engle and tell them what you want and they will recommend a grind.

[ironman_gq]

did you have to mill the valve bosses for clearance or get different valve springs to run that cam to avoid coil bind or hitting the keepers on the valve boss?

[JERSEYJOE]

NO I used the 1971 401 heads with no problem. I also used Crane springs and retainers

[steviesj20]

I called Engle this afternoon.
The rep told me that the 5052 or 5054 as Jersey Joe mentioned would be ideal. They were polite with my novice questions.
He said the smaller 5052 would have little more power on the lower end where the 5054 would be a little better on the upper end. He said the Edelbrock timing chain and springs that I already have would be OK. I just need to tell them the lobe seperation and give them about 5 days to manufacture plus shipping time. Also need to degree the cam.
Seems like a flip of the coin.
I left a message with the bulltear answering machine seeking advice but had no return calls as of yet.

[JERSEYJOE]

Steve:

the 5054 is a great cam in a 8.5 to 1 401 motor. It has a relatively high lift and the profile is designed to fake the motor into thinking it has higher compression at lower RPM. When people talk about Dynamic Compression ration this is what they are talking about. My combination is running this cam at the 4 degree advance position. I am using an Edelbrock Performer intake, Edelbrock TES exhaust which is a bolt in for the stock exhaust manifolds and still runs a single exhaust. Mine is 2 1/2 all the way back. I am using a Holley Street Avenger Carb although the Edelbrock carb is OK for street use. This combination I have used before and it tows like night and day over the pathetic stock 360.

[kris]

I am also on the IFSJA froum.

I like the Engle Cam 5054 H grind. It's very similar to the old Sig Erson High Flow. This works well on a low compression 360 or 401.

Joe and I have both pimped Engle here before. I just happen to be close enough to them that I was in their shop on Tuesday. :t:

With Engle you dont need to settle for a straight grind. I have been running (for the last 9 years) a k52 intake / k54 exhaust grind and I love it. I picked up a new one last week (yes, in person) and ended up needing to go back this week for valvesprings. If you live in an area that sniffs your tailpipe this is a better cam. Chris at Engle suggested that the k54 was getting a bit long for a late model that was subject to checks. Mine passed fantastic with a newer cat last year and still passed ok with the older one.

Anyways, Im building another 360 right now that will go in next weekend. All stock except the cam/springs, balance, and decking the block to .005". At .030" over, this combo puts the compression ratio at 8.5:1 and the "Dynamic" compression ratio at 7.2:1.

Their cams are ground to order and parkerised in house. They only dip cams once a week which is why it can take a few days to ship.

k.

[JERSEYJOE]

Thanks Kris.. I am not in the habit of " pimpin" anyone but I just report the success or failure that I have. Our sport needs good people like MC at Bulltear and companies like Engle that take the time to listen to their customers and discuss their needs.

[ironman_gq]

Engle are great! Im running in the straight up position but might want to play around with the 4 degree advanced position and see if it gives me any more low end :lo1l:

[JERSEYJOE]

I have found that most time they do run etter that way. Most of the aftermarket cams that I have ever checked needed at least 2 degrees just to get them to zero.

[steviesj20]

I believe that when I spoke with Engle last week that I spoke with a gentleman by the name of Doug.
Do you guys know if there is anyone in particular there that I should have spoken with?

I went over to the forum page on Edelbrock's website and posted a question about cam selection. I listed the following cam's.
Engle K52, K54, Summit K8600 and Crane H-260-2
Here is their reply:
"Any of those will work. Just remember that in general, the more duration at 0.050" you have, the less vacuum the engine will pull at idle and the higher your torque peak will be. 112 is good for the lobe separation. We usually recommend not going any lower than that."
Here is the link:
http://forums.edelbrock.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271

So with the comments I get from Edelbrock it looks like the cam with that will peak with highest torque rpm is the K8600. It seems like that is what I want for towing.
Right/Wrong??? Is my thinking correct on this?

[JERSEYJOE]

THE EDELBROCK CAM IS WAY TOO MILD. THE CRANE 260 IS DECENT, I HAVE ONE IN MY CJ 7 360 PLOW TRUCK, I NEVER HEARD ANYONE COMMENT ABOUT THE SUMMIT GRIND. I REALLY LIKE THE ENGLE 5054. I HAVE RUN THIS BEFORE AND WAS HAPPY ENOUGH TO USE ONE THIS TIME AROUND IN MY J-20 PROJECT. I WOULD NOT USE IT IN A 10:1 COMPRESSION MOTOR THOUGH

[ironman_gq]

if you go with the k8600 be sure to look it over THOROUGHLY! they have had a lot of quality control problems and several people on this forum have had motors ruined very quickly by this cam most problems seem to be from lobes being improperly finished or hardening problems and the lobes going flat and eating the lifters :shock: :(: :smile:

[JERSEYJOE]

BEST REASON FOR NOT GOING WITH THIS MODEL.

STICK WITH EITHER CRANE, COMP OR ENGLE. I DON'T THINK I AM GOING OUT ON A LIMB SAYING THAT THEIR QUALITY CONTROL IS BETTER AS IS THEIR WARRANTY...

[kris]

I believe that when I spoke with Engle last week that I spoke with a gentleman by the name of Doug.
Do you guys know if there is anyone in particular there that I should have spoken with?


"Doug" is Doug Engle. He and his brother Mark are the sons of Jack Engle who started the place. Over the years Ive talked to Doug the most, but Chris is the guy that usually answers the phones now.


k.

[AMX69PHATTY]

There's always Elgin or Clevite "industrial" cams also.
The Elgin cam & lifters put in a 360 last year perform well.
They both offer a number of cams and 3 types of lifters.
They're not "high brow" cams, but quality seems to be there.
Check out the Elgin website for an on-line AMC cam listing with specs.

http://www.elginind.com/default.asp

[ironman_gq]

what do you mean by "industrial" cam?

[AMX69PHATTY]

Just that they don't do a lot of marketing and high profile flashy image stuff, usually are not offered in Jegs or Summit, some may be old school tried and true profiles, and commercial "industrial" engine rebuilders like Jasper etc probably use them in the "stock replacement" rebuilt engines they sell. Didn't mean to imply anything negative, the Elgin cam & lifters I got were good quality parts and are performing well. Engine combination had me backed into a corner with piston to valve clearance and the E-1041-P Elgin cam was the only off-the-shelf one I could find with more lift and duration than stock, but also without very much overlap, 64 deg, so that piston to valve clearance could be maintained. All the "brand name" cams with lift approaching .500 and duration approaching 290 deg had significantly more overlap, around 70 something degrees, which gave almost no piston to valve clearance with the low buck combination of parts being used. Didn't mean to imply anything "bad" about them.

[ironman_gq]

I wasnt thinking anything bad I just thought that they had two different lines out there or something. I had a clevite performer in my 304 for two years but could never get the idle to smooth out and it seemed a little anemic on the bottom end. They tend to be a chevy or ford grind on an amc blank kind of like a one size fits all and they do work reasonably well and are relatively cheap.

[jeepsr4ever]

If the sky is your budget then the MPEFI, increased compression, aluminum heads and nice custom ground RV type cam would get you rocking and rolling. If not then a RV cam, performer intake and carb and a little shaving on the heads to bump compression. Of course there are tons of variations..

I didnt get to read the entire thread so if I missed something or made myself look silly I will just have to deal with the ridicule :?:

[82Waggy]

401
Engle 5254H, 112LSA - 4deg Advanced
Thorley Tri-Y
Edel MPEFI
9:1 compression
Warmed over 090 heads w/stainless Valves
------------------
GOLDEN!

[steviesj20]

I came up with a copy of desktop dyno to check some cams and the program is up and running.
I am trying to input factory flow data for the cylinder heads (late model). Any idea of where this information can be found?
I searched this site and have only found data for the early cyl. heads.
Can anyone help?