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View Full Version : Starting my 4x8 frame build, couple questions


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f_armer
12-22-2013, 11:18 AM
So I am starting my frame, I've got all my pieces cut. I'm using 3x3x 3/16 wall, probably a bit overkill on wall thickness.
The long bottom braces says maintain 21" between those and the top rails. Is there an advantage to having more room there? Just wondering?
I presume the center legs should be just centered between the outer legs, centered on the 103" tubes, not centered on the 111" ones for any reason?
Do you recommend leveling feet? I have a fairly level floor in the shop, I was thinking of using shims, if needed, to level it. Is that ok?
The water tray says it can be 106" to 109". Is there an advantage to be 106 or 109? I have a 5x10 sheet of 12g, I can go 109" but is there any advantage to be at 106" Or what is the reason for having the 3" variance?
I just don't want to get it all welded up and find out it would have been better if i had changed something.
Thanks
Don

jeepsr4ever
12-26-2013, 04:13 PM
Did you get everything answered?

f_armer
12-27-2013, 04:14 PM
Yes, I think so. Frame is all welded up and ready for the gantry kit.
I'm making the water tray 54x106 as per your advice.
I guess I should paint the frame while i'm waiting for the stuff. Not sure what color just yet.

jeepsr4ever
12-27-2013, 04:20 PM
We use safety blue but primary colors look great! I have seen customers go green, red, yellow, flames and zinc.

f_armer
01-05-2014, 12:35 AM
368
Frame is done. Hope the pic works.

jeepsr4ever
01-05-2014, 01:28 PM
Frame looks like we built it here! Great job!

f_armer
01-05-2014, 01:40 PM
Frame looks like we built it here! Great job!
Wrong color though! I had a quart of black handy so thats what I used. Most stuff in the shop is black or red, so it goes with my "theme".

f_armer
01-23-2014, 11:34 AM
Got my water tray ready to go. just have to weld in a drain pipe. Is one 1-1/2" enough? Or what do you guys usually put in?
The local Hutterite Colony has a cnc press brake, they did a perfect job, and only charged me $30
370

jeepsr4ever
01-23-2014, 12:25 PM
1-1/2 is good and will work well enough. Thats a beautiful pan!

f_armer
01-23-2014, 01:56 PM
Well if one 1-1/2" is good then two must be better! I had a 1-1/2" pipe nipple that I cut the end off, but I still had the other end so I used them both.

371

f_armer
02-18-2014, 09:58 PM
So I got the kit today. I unpackaged it this afternoon and got to work. Rails, Gantry, and all motors are on. Everything ran smoothly.
Now I was going to run the wires and install the cable chains. It doesn't matter which side I run them on, does it? I plan on running everything on the right side (facing the torch side).
I must admit it would be nice to have better instructions, or at least a bunch of pictures to show how you guys do it. There was a bit of head scratching trying to guess where stuff goes. And it would have been nice to include the cable chain brackets, I'm in the boonies and don't have access to 1/4" aluminum very easily.
Is there supposed to be hard stops somewhere? If I roll the gantry to the end of the rail the gears go off the end of the rack, or is this a safety feature?
Tomorrow I hope to have movement, maybe even first cuts!

f_armer
02-18-2014, 10:13 PM
Pics381382383

jeepsr4ever
02-19-2014, 07:56 AM
Did you access the plasma instructional? There should have been aluminum pieces in there for the cable carrier. Also there are Tnuts underneath the gantry for cable carrier.

f_armer
02-19-2014, 08:16 AM
There was only one aluminum piece, I concluded it must bolt to the y axis drive. The holes in it are drilled on an angle and seem to fit there. Is there instructions that im missing? Ive only found this section. http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19161-Gantry-kit-users-(Instructions)
And yes there are tnuts under the gantry.

jeepsr4ever
02-19-2014, 09:11 AM
Instructions are online in the instructional. That piece is definately for the Y and I do believe our guys started sending out cable carrier holders (the flat aluminum with the 2 holes for the T nuts). I will have to check it out.

jeepsr4ever
02-19-2014, 09:14 AM
Also on the non servo system the stop at the end of the rail allows you to coast into it. This eliminates crashes during overtravel. When this happens your power off your controller and push your gantry back on the gear rack and power up again. The servo systems are $3300 more but do have limit switches.

f_armer
02-20-2014, 09:46 AM
Well I managed to make my first cuts last night. Couple problems though, no matter what I cut, it shows up properly in sheetcam and mach3, but cuts out backwards, or mirror image of what it should be.
Also thc is online, voltage is showing in mach, seems like everything is ok, but when it starts to cut it will just slowly raise the z until I lose arc. My voltage was set at 117 volts, but actual seems to be jumping around 70 to 90.
The plasma seems to be shutting off for a second during a cut, it will just cut out mid line randomly, leaving gaps of uncut. I have the plasma ground clamped onto the piece being cut.
It was fun to finally see it all kinda work though!

jeepsr4ever
02-20-2014, 10:27 AM
Ok so lets go through a couple of things

1. If your cutting backwards go to config/ports and pins/motor outputs and toggle the DIRlowactive for Y axis then restart mach
2. If your voltage isnt reading properly you didnt set the voltage equal on plasma cutter and the small DTHC box. If you look at the abck of the box you can set it to 7-1 15-1 20-1 and 50-1. It needs to match your divided torch board in your plasma cutter. If you didnt touch the divided torch board in the plasma cutter it comes set to 50-1 so you need to match that on the small box before cutting again (which you probably have set to 20-1). If you want you can set your division in the plasma cutter by taking the sheetmetal case off and moving the last dipswitch on the board to get the "all down" position for 20-1. The board is located on the fan side of the inner area of the plasma cutter. READ the attention powermax 45-65-85 users topic in the instructional.
3. Erratic torch misfires can be caused by a few things.
1. Incompatable keyboard or mouse
2. Low air pressure
3. Windows vista
4. Dell optiplex numbers from 600 and less.

f_armer
02-20-2014, 10:50 AM
I had the cover off the plasma and didn't see any switches, are the PM45's all adjustable? I read it is preset to 50:1, the dthc is set to 50:1 in the little box that connects to the plasma.
I'll check the rest in a couple hours, we had a blizzard yesterday and I gotta move some snow outta the yard today.

jeepsr4ever
02-20-2014, 10:55 AM
If it is a 45 then yes it is static at 50-1. If it isnt reading correctly you either have a bad board in the Powermax 45 or there is an issue with the electronics. Maybe you should call in here for a couple of diagnostic run throughs with someone.

jeepsr4ever
02-20-2014, 11:21 AM
To check if you have an issue with the powermax or an issue with the PWM box (little black box) there is a volt test button on the back of the small black box. It should read 126-127 volts on the Mach 3 screen when pressed.

f_armer
02-20-2014, 12:44 PM
the PWM box reads 125-126 mostly 125.
The test on the main box cycles 100 and 150 with the up and down lights flashing in sequence.

jeepsr4ever
02-20-2014, 01:06 PM
Then the powermax 45 may not be giving the right voltage. Are you using a drag tip or something strange on the end? Did you check your cut profile and make sure you have the 45 amp setting for your steel?

f_armer
02-20-2014, 08:16 PM
I found a new Pentium 4 computer, setting it up now. Hopefully this cures my issues.

jeepsr4ever
02-22-2014, 02:45 PM
If your problem persists take the plug out and make sure none of the pins got kicked back so it doesnt loose contact with the tip voltage output of the powermax 45.

jeepsr4ever
02-23-2014, 03:19 PM
There are 2 other possibilities.

1. The Ethernet cable has a short or isn't plugged in all the way or the 1/4 male plug isn't in all the way.
2. You have an incompatible keyboard or mouse. Try making a cut without the keyboard or mouse hooked up only using the hand controller and see what it does.

f_armer
02-23-2014, 09:23 PM
I'll try those suggestions. I borrowed a friends PM45 and it did the exact same thing. I tested the PWM and it seems to be working properly. I hooked 2 AA batteries to a stereo jack and plugged it in, I had 3.27v going in, and it read 160-161v in Mach, so if I said 160.5v the voltage divider would be 49.08:1 which is pretty close.
It also cuts out randomly during a cut, just for a second, but cutting some aluminum at 380ipm, it leaves a fairly long gap. The torch on light stays on in Mach, but the 'arc ok' light goes out when that happens. I'll keep troubleshooting, it's kinda annoying though.
Hope you don't mind, but I made a couple nameplates for my table, one on each end. Its not really your logo, but its what I came up with.
385

jeepsr4ever
02-23-2014, 09:45 PM
Looks good! Try running a part without the keyboard and mouse hooked up. Open Mach and load G-code and then unplug the keyboard and mouse. Use the controller to start the program. The logo looks superb! I will let the guys know about that. Also the table looks nice and tall.

f_armer
02-23-2014, 10:54 PM
Tried what you suggested, no difference, do you think grounding the table would make a difference. I have a steel building, wondering if I tied a ground into one of the footing bolts, they are tied to rebar that goes down into 14' deep concrete pilings.
The table maybe looks taller in the pic, but it is built according to your plans, 37" to the top of the water pan.
I'll see if I can round up another ethernet cable to try.
Do you think I should get rid of the coil of motor wires underneath? you can see in the above pic how I coiled them. Was thinking about shortening them to the proper length.
It doesn't seem like interference because the voltage never gets close to proper, it seems to always be in that 45-90v range.
:crazyeyes:

jeepsr4ever
02-24-2014, 09:13 AM
Did you check to see if there was a pin pushed in inside the plug end?

f_armer
02-24-2014, 09:37 AM
Did you check to see if there was a pin pushed in inside the plug end?
I did check, they seem ok.

jeepsr4ever
02-24-2014, 01:39 PM
Ok the first PC was an AMD I can see an issue. The second was an Intel chip and 32 bit. That should have worked fine. My guess is the installer or PC has an issue. You have eliminated the plasma cutter and the electronics by the self tests.

jeepsr4ever
02-24-2014, 02:04 PM
You should also fill us in here on the test you have done. I see your on the CandCNC support forum as well.

f_armer
02-24-2014, 08:04 PM
My guess is the installer or PC has an issue. You have eliminated the plasma cutter and the electronics by the self tests.
Haha when I read it the first time, I thought you meant me as the installer has issues! Maybe your right!
I was away all day so I didnt play with it, but I got another ethernet cable, im going to try. But maybe I should try another installer, you mentioned yours was different than the one I downloaded off candcnc site. Do you think its worth trying the version you have? If you could email it to me or something, I dont know where to get an older version.
Also, could the 9 pin com port cable cause problems? Printer cable? Or which cable sends that info to the PC.
Could the machine torch be faulty?

f_armer
02-24-2014, 08:08 PM
You should also fill us in here on the test you have done. I see your on the CandCNC support forum as well.
I thought I summed it up in post 27, except that candcnc suggested firing the torch in the air, then testing the voltage at the stereo plug, I was getting around 2.7v which is a bit low they figured I should have 3.2-3.4v.

jeepsr4ever
02-24-2014, 08:24 PM
After setting up tons of these you find out it is not magical, there is no gremlin it is usually something REALLY simple like the 9 pin cable isn't properly seated, 25 pin cable is loose and even the CPC/MIC-01 cable isn't properly seated. I have seen cables that screw in but still not seat fully. I have seen just a few bad cables but not many.

f_armer
02-24-2014, 10:07 PM
I just tested the voltage out of the CPC connector on the back of the PM45 and I have 3.24v (terminals 5,6) when I jump the arc start terminals(3,4) So it has to be between the cord between the plasma CPC connector and the PWM box. I think we're getting somewhere!!

jeepsr4ever
02-24-2014, 11:07 PM
Check the green plug to see if the wires were overtightened.

f_armer
02-24-2014, 11:21 PM
It looked like maybe they had pinched some insulation in the green plug on one wire, so I took them all out, re-tinned the ends with solder, and put them back in with no change.
I sprayed contact cleaner on both ends of the cpc connectors, and put di-electric grease on all the pins. No change.......
Still, if I fire the torch in the air I have 2.7v at the stereo plug, if I test at the back of the plasma at the cpc plug I get 3.3-3.5v ..........I tested the cord with the ohm meter and all wires check out ok, even if I wiggle them around, they seem to have connection. I peeled the heatshrink and glue off the back of the plug and all the wires look ok.
Im kinda stumped.

f_armer
03-12-2014, 08:37 AM
I got my new cable yesterday. It is now showing proper (maybe slighly high) voltage on the mach dro.
When I did test cuts with thc off it seemed to read in the 125-135v range.
When I tried thc on, I set my voltage to 120 to get the torch to stay down, but it drags, and yanks it off the mag loc. When I set the voltage to 121, it starts out fine and as soon as thc kicks in after the pierce, the torch just raises up until it loses arc.
I got pissed off and ordered another computer, a dell gx620, what candcnc recommends. Wonder if that will help.

jeepsr4ever
03-12-2014, 09:21 AM
I will need you to send that old cable back to us. The other thing you can try it turning off "raise head on fault" setting in the cut profile. Your THC delay might not be long enough or it may be a PC issue.

f_armer
03-12-2014, 09:41 AM
I'll send the cable.
"raise head on fault" is unchecked already. My THC delay is 1 sec. It seems that it is long enough delay, I can watch it do the pierce, and the height seems ok as it starts the cut, then starts to raise after it gets going. I'll try experimenting with the delay and see what happens.
Also, with THC off, the cuts are nice and smooth, but when I turn THC 'on' curves seem to get jittery. Not so much noticeable on straight cuts.
It makes me think the PC does have issues. Which doesn't make sense, as it is exactly what CandCNC recommends except that its not the right brand.
Not sure if I posted PC specs
IBM Netvista 8303
Pentium 4 2.66 Ghz
512 mb ram
fresh install windows xp sp2
optimized to candcnc recommendations, except they recommend turning off video card memory sharing, which I cannot, there is no setting in bios to turn it completely off.

jeepsr4ever
03-12-2014, 10:11 AM
Raising means your either not traveling fast enough for the material/amperage or your tip volts are too high. (use book specs) Jittery means your THC rate is too high (try 15-18 for 14ga and thicker). THC on making only curves jittery tells me it is most likely a PC issue. Netvista might have been an early windows VISTA PC which is absolutely not compatable with Mach 3.

f_armer
03-12-2014, 12:38 PM
Whats weird is,
If I set my voltage to 116 in mach, it drags the tip, most of the time, but sometimes raises it up till it loses arc.
If I set it to 117v, its about 50:50, sometimes drags, sometimes goes high.
If I set it to 118v, it usually gies up till it loses arc, but sometimes will drag.
Speed, and all other settings are by the book.
Tried changing thc rate, from 15% on up, in different increments, but doesn't seem to fix anything.
Have tried changing thc delay from .8 sec up to 1.5 sec. Still no change.
Do you think pc issue
I ordered yet another pc to try, its a dell gx620 3 ghz pentium 4 ht, 2 gb ram. Wont probably be here for a week or more.

f_armer
03-12-2014, 12:44 PM
Netvista might have been an early windows VISTA PC which is absolutely not compatable with Mach 3.
It was a business lease return that came with xp pro. Vista was never an option.
http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/detail.page?LegacyDocID=MIGR-42671
Not saying its not the pc, but just seems odd that thc seems to require a specific brand of pc.

jeepsr4ever
03-12-2014, 12:48 PM
Was it 64 bit or 32? Needs to be 32

f_armer
03-12-2014, 01:46 PM
Was it 64 bit or 32? Needs to be 32

32bit

jeepsr4ever
03-12-2014, 02:34 PM
Its just erratic! Does your tip volt reading form the plasma cutter vary quite a bit is it jumping 10-20 volts while cutting? Try cutting with no THC on it should still read tip volts.

f_armer
03-12-2014, 02:45 PM
Yes it varies easy 20v while cutting with thc off, or on. Whats strange is that when vary the voltage 1v (117-118 ) in mach it changes from dragging to going really high.
Cuts fine with thc off though.

jeepsr4ever
03-12-2014, 03:07 PM
Very strange indeed like there is a loose connection. On that Powermax 45 does the work clamp push in and twist into the power supply or is it integrated? (removable?) When I have see issues similar it was the work clamp not being pushed in all the way into the plasma cutter.

f_armer
03-12-2014, 03:34 PM
Very strange indeed like there is a loose connection. On that Powermax 45 does the work clamp push in and twist into the power supply or is it integrated? (removable?) When I have see issues similar it was the work clamp not being pushed in all the way into the plasma cutter.
Its integrated, I had the cover off and double checked all the connections inside, everything is clean and tight.

f_armer
03-12-2014, 05:12 PM
Could it be the torch itself? When I fire the torch in the air it is suppose to be around 135v according to tom at candcnc, on the Mach screen. But it still shows 45-50. That's when it has a flame, I was firing it repeatedly and a couple times it just made a blip, and went out. When it did that, the voltage showed right around 130 in Mach. With no flame.
It's like the torch isn't fully firing.
It shows full voltage when it's cutting though, so maybe it's acting normal?

f_armer
03-12-2014, 06:20 PM
I just read through jamscal's thread again, I must have missed it the first time through, but you told him that cut height should be at least .02 higher than the book says.
I have mine set at .06 according to the hypertherm manual, could this be part of my problem? That is the first time I read that anywhere.

jeepsr4ever
03-13-2014, 06:39 AM
The only time that is a problem is when your in contact with the metal your cutting. For this reason we often suggest a cut start at .02 above book.

f_armer
03-14-2014, 11:32 AM
Is it normal for the tip voltage at idle to be jumping around? If I watch it, it fluctuates from 0-20v on the mach dro.
0,3,14,19,0,2,20,3,9,12,0,1,5,9,18,0,3,7,0,1,17,.. ..... if you know what I mean?

jeepsr4ever
03-14-2014, 11:51 AM
No, it is not normal. Does it do it with the cable unplugged from the torch?

f_armer
03-14-2014, 01:10 PM
If I unplug the stereo jack it goes to 125v
If I unplug the torch lead from the PM45 it still does it.
If I unplug the CPC plug from the back of the PM45 it goes to 242v
If I unplug the ethernet cord from the PWM it goes to 0v
If I turn the PM45 off it goes to 0v

With everything hooked up normal it favors 0-5v but watching it now it will even show as high as 29v at idle.

jeepsr4ever
03-14-2014, 01:15 PM
On the old PC?

f_armer
03-14-2014, 01:20 PM
On the old PC?
Yes, I havent got the newer one yet.

Just noticed the PM45 has a very faint crackling or clicking sound coming from inside it near the back of it. It does not have the air hooked to it, so its not an air leak, but sounds similar. Not sure if that is normal??

f_armer
03-14-2014, 01:36 PM
Here's how the voltage looks, it hits a high of 22 in this short vid
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwvhe5ezsh4cj3u/20140314_132124.mp4

jeepsr4ever
03-14-2014, 03:56 PM
Hard to say with the plasma cutter now giving an audible issue. A small air leak can sometimes sound like a crackle.

f_armer
03-14-2014, 06:54 PM
Hard to say with the plasma cutter now giving an audible issue. A small air leak can sometimes sound like a crackle.
It's not air, I never had the air hooked up.
Ill try and see if I can borrow my friends pm45 one of these days, and see if the voltage acts the same.

f_armer
03-17-2014, 12:33 PM
Tom wants me to rma the pwm. He thinks that's the reason my voltage is acting up. So I'll give that a try.

f_armer
03-20-2014, 10:39 PM
I got my new (used) dell gx620 pc. Have it optimized and ready to go. Cant cut with it until I get my pwm from candcnc though.
I will keep you updated

f_armer
04-02-2014, 08:23 AM
Finally got the new pwm in the mail. Everything seems to be working right. This is the first time I've been able to use thc. Happy happy happy.

jeepsr4ever
04-02-2014, 08:30 AM
GREAT!

f_armer
04-09-2014, 03:41 PM
Built a computer desk and a water tank for draining the table. Tank is 18" tall x 24" wide 48" long. Holds 87 gal. Works well. I have two 1-1/2" drains in the table that tee into a 2" strainer, and 2" plumbing to the tank. It takes very little air pressure to fill the table back up.
398
399

f_armer
04-09-2014, 03:51 PM
Built the tank using the table. Cut slits for bending and for welding the inner supports for the top. Worked good, but it obviously does add a bit more welding than using a brake.
400
401
402

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