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Rocky
12-29-2003, 02:38 AM
I'm putting a mid ratio T-19 into a CJ7 w/a D20 (AA adapter), and would like to keep the skidplate at the stock height for better ground clearance..
The stock setup for a T-18 in a CJ drops the TC 7/8" and uses a 1/4" spacer between the TC adapter and the mount.
Anybody put a T-18 or T-19 into a CJ w/o dropping the skid? If so, what's it take to get good clearance and angles?

RandyJ
12-29-2003, 05:07 AM
Been there, done that... somewhat. I did use 2x2 tubes on the outside, but I only used a 1" thick mount.
Check out this link: Skid plate page (http://members.cox.net/jeepinrandy/skid.htm)
I did move the engine forward 1.5" (back mount holes to the front) which also raised it up an inch. With 33" tires (see picture below) I have 21" under the skid plate on a 4" BDS lift. :t:
http://members.cox.net/jeepinrandy/images/fin02.jpg

RandyJ
12-29-2003, 05:10 AM
#-o I forgot to mention that I am running a wide ratio T-19 with a Scout D300 T-case. 111!!!

Rocky
12-29-2003, 09:45 PM
Nice skid setup, and good looking rig!
How much body lift do you have on it? Suspension lift?
How'd you deal with driveline angles? (CV driveshaft?)
Did you have to lower the radiator?

I'm putting together a DD, with the goal of decent offroad abilities. (5.1 low T-19, Terra kit in the TC and OX lockers F & R.)
To keep decent road manners, I'm avoiding anything too radical in terms of lift. (3" susp, 1/2" body) and will be running 33s. Intention is to keep low CG, as well... trans/TC as low as possible, but not lose ground clearance. I want to use the stock skid plate, but want to avoid lowering it (per the stock AMC setup for the T-18). Anybody done this??

RandyJ
12-30-2003, 06:20 AM
Thanks, I have been working on it for a while.

1" Daystar body mount/lift (integrated), 4" BDS spring lift.

Rear drive shaft is 28" CV extended travel from Tom Woods, front drive shafts is 29"... another 1/2" forward and both would have been the same length. :-|

Radiator is in the stock location because the engine was raised about the same amount as the body lift :t:

I am running 4.27 gears, 2.72 T-case and the t-19 has the 6.32 first. I figure that if I need more I can add the 4-1 kit in the T-case.

jeepsr4ever
12-30-2003, 09:21 AM
hey sounds like you got one heck of a low gear! I run cv's as well but i made them , always wondered if i could have saved time and monay by buying a set from tom woods. I am skeptical about any parts on my jeep that i did not make myself..........LOL weird like that i guess 111!!!

Rocky
12-31-2003, 12:41 AM
Hey, jeeps, got any input on my original question?

jeepsr4ever
12-31-2003, 01:10 AM
which one

Rocky
12-31-2003, 02:27 PM
I'm putting a mid ratio T-19 into a CJ7 w/a D20 (AA adapter), and would like to keep the skidplate at the stock height for better ground clearance..
The stock setup for a T-18 in a CJ drops the TC 7/8" and uses a 1/4" spacer between the TC adapter and the mount.
Anybody put a T-18 or T-19 into a CJ w/o dropping the skid? If so, what's it take to get good clearance and angles?

jeepsr4ever
12-31-2003, 03:44 PM
:-|

Mudrat
01-02-2004, 12:51 PM
Thanks, I have been working on it for a while.
Randy, stopped by your site - NICE WORK! :lo1l: I know the feeling on long term projects - my 85 was found to be pretty much a basket case too. Someday it'll live again. Frame, body, engine are done - now I've just got to get them all together again :oops:

Mudrat

Rocky
01-02-2004, 01:30 PM
Hey- wazzup w/ this forum... I post a legitimate question and so far, the only approach at an answer is from another newbie (thanks Randy).
I'm happy to see both the forum admin and a moderator show up... until I realize that rather than answers to the topic, you both post thread hijacks! What's policy here, guys?

pyagid
01-02-2004, 01:56 PM
Randy has Experience with it and is a Newbie.....But at Bulltear we do not disregard what newbies have to say or post b/c they are new to the board unlike some other boards.

I installed a T-18 in my cj but all I did was cut the existing skid plate to all it to fit properly so it is not fully protected. So i did not feel a need as to what not to do. My SKid plate is in the stock location but the front of the transmission hangs out about 1" or so down. I am always very concerned with it while wheeling and avoid some obstacles i would normally attemp b/c of it. My T-18 is also out of a FSJ with a 6cyl so it is positions slightly different than normal b/c there is a 1" adapter between the bellhousing and trans. It does not have the long Input shaft but it is not the normal short one either I plan on making something similiar to Randys soon.

As far as the Hijacking it tends to happen occasionally around here but it is usually all in good fun.

Paul

jeepsr4ever
01-02-2004, 02:42 PM
You can run the adaptor and the skidplate without dropping it but what kind of lift are we talking about, sure you can run 10" lift without dropping the skidplate but you will need special driveshafts, I guess we have to probe further in

Mudrat
01-02-2004, 07:55 PM
I'm putting a mid ratio T-19 into a CJ7 w/a D20 (AA adapter), and would like to keep the skidplate at the stock height for better ground clearance..
The stock setup for a T-18 in a CJ drops the TC 7/8" and uses a 1/4" spacer between the TC adapter and the mount.
Anybody put a T-18 or T-19 into a CJ w/o dropping the skid? If so, what's it take to get good clearance and angles?


Hey- wazzup w/ this forum... I post a legitimate question and so far, the only approach at an answer is from another newbie (thanks Randy).
I'm happy to see both the forum admin and a moderator show up... until I realize that rather than answers to the topic, you both post thread hijacks! What's policy here, guys?
Rocky, If I had an answer I would have given one. Sorry, but I don't know.
MC didn't either, or at least he's thinking and maybe researching for you.
:-|
And I thought you've done a great job on your ride and your site. Thought the complement would be good. :roll:
Mudrat

Rocky
01-03-2004, 01:49 AM
Thanks all for the replies.

pyagid:
Do you know whether your front driveline angles changed any due to the trans swap? Did you have to compensate in any way?
(Also, I'm sure you probably know that if you want to ditch the spacer and shorten your driveline, you can use a F**D T18 input shaft and a CJ T-150/T-176 bellhousing w/ either a turned down F**D pilot bushing or one from AA or Novak.)

MC:
I have 3" spring lift, 1/2" body lift. Driveline = 304, T-19, D20, D30, AMC20. It looks like I'll probably have to use a CV on the rear. The AMC factory TSM has a weird formula for front driveline angles... (maybe a misprint.. wouldn't be the first I've found) .. they spec the front pinion angle to one degree more than DRIVESHAFT angle, and make no mention of the angle of the trans/TC. This would be perfect for a setup w/ a CV on the TC end, but doesn't make a lot of sense for the stock CJ front setup w/ single cardan U joints on both ends. I don't want to have to rotate the pumpkin to get driveline angles to work (and shims would just throw the caster angle off). I'm pretty sure that the longer driveline will make up for any increase in U joint angles on the front that the lift might have caused, but I'd like to get input from anybody with experience on how critical the relationship between trans/TC angle and front pinion angle is.
I know that none of this would be of concern to a dedicated rock crawler or trailer queen, but I'm building this as a DD. It will see a lot of highway miles, some of them in snow, so I'd like to get it right from the start.
(Thanks for taking the trouble just to read this all.)

Mudrat:
Thanks for the compliment, but... uh.... That was Randy's rig and site that you were looking at. ... And I agree... I think he did a nice job!

pyagid
01-03-2004, 08:33 AM
Thanks all for the replies.

pyagid:
Do you know whether your front driveline angles changed any due to the trans swap? Did you have to compensate in any way?
(Also, I'm sure you probably know that if you want to ditch the spacer and shorten your driveline, you can use a F**D T18 input shaft and a CJ T-150/T-176 bellhousing w/ either a turned down F**D pilot bushing or one from AA or Novak.)


I did not have to do anything with the drive angles. But i only have a add a leaf and have not had any problem with eating ujoints or vibrations. I originally had a t-5/dana300 and ended up using the stock front driveshaft but ordered a custom length on for the rear from tom woods. I am going SOA in the next couple of weeks with Waggy springs so i am sure i am going to have to do somehting then. AS far as the length if this was in a 5 i would be more conserned but since it is in a 7 it does not really matter. I had a few long input t-18 out of FSJ's that I was going to swap the ford input shaft onto. But then i came across this one in a 6cyl Truck and it works with out haveing to take anything apart or getting any adapters


And i don't think you need to be to conserned with the front pinion angle. From my experiance driving DD jeeps with about the same lift as yours through snow I never really noticed a problems. I always see problems with the rear more probably b/c that is used 100% of the time. And with the spec you read for 1 degree more. I have read that a few different places for different applications. We ran in to the same thing building a friends car. Most places so to do that so when torque is applied it ends up at the same angle. that is the only explanation i could ever find for it

http://www.yagid.com/avatar/paulsig.gif

Rocky
01-03-2004, 04:57 PM
Thanks, pyagid.
I agree w/ the 1 deg being for axle wrap... makes sense to me too... But then that'd be for a CV setup, where the non-CV end is essentially in line w/ the pinion. ..Doesn't make sense for the single cardsn setup.
Since AMC used both styles in the front, it would seem that the TSM ought to give two different specs! Like I said, it wouldn't be the first error I've caught in an AMC TSM!!
Anybody seen different specs for CV vs single cardan front drivelines on a CJ?
I'm glad to hear that the front angles don't seem to be so critical. Hopefully, I'll be fine w/ it.

RandyJ
01-04-2004, 06:32 PM
:!: Well, sorry for no introduction and I will be a noob for a whie since I do not post much. 111!!!

I have been fabricating and building 4x4 rigs since the seventies when I built a 56 CJ with a 304, power steering, updated axles yada yada.....

I just offered up one possible solution for the original question, granted it wasn't a full belly-up, but it is the transmission (T-19) and simular transfer case (Scout Dana 300) that was in question.

jeepsr4ever
01-04-2004, 07:37 PM
Randy, did you have to do any frame mods for the 304 in the early frame?

Rocky
01-04-2004, 10:52 PM
Good question about the frame mods, MC. It's my understanding that AMC originally begin boxing the CJ frames because the 304s were tearing 'em up.

Randy:
Thanks for your input to my original question... Good info, and adds to solving the puzzle. I'm working at making this build both a good DD and a "wolf in sheap's clothing" offroad. Doing my best to keep it looking stock enough that it doesn't stand out too much around town, but capable offroad (as well as safe and comfortable to drive on the highway.) ...I know... I'm asking a lot!!! That's why I want to put as much research into it b'fore committing to various mods.

Anybody else with input about front driveline angles, ane how critical they are, please chime in! Also... how have people dealt w/ raising the TC (for clearance) and fan/shroud/radiator alignment? (I don't want to lift the body any more than the 1/2" that I've done, so I don't have clearance to raise the engine.) Looks to me that I'll have to drop the radiator/shroud down some...

RandyJ
01-05-2004, 04:50 AM
Yes, I did box the frame from the fire wall forward. I took the cross member from a rusted out 73 CJ5 (engine donar) and grafted it into the frame in the front, which was the exact same width. That gave me the mount for the steering box that I needed and a place for the Jeep frame motor mounts.

Big project because I rebuilt/built the 304 at the same time. Unfortunately I built the motor for high end horse power and not torque. :!: The thing would just sit there spinning 4 tires on pavement if you hit the gas to hard. 111!!!

For drive line angles...
Don't worry to much about the front drive shaft, since it shouldn't be used that much. Just unlock the front hubs when you drive it. For the back, measure the angles with an angle guage. Trans output yoke should match rear axle pinion yoke angle within 1¬?, max of 3¬?. Drive shaft shouldn't be more than 10¬?-12¬? or you will get vibration. If either of those rules can't be met, you will need a CV drive shaft to prevent vibration. :t:

Rocky
01-05-2004, 08:43 AM
Thanks, Randy-
Yeah, I'm real familiar w/ setting up drivelines. I tend to be a little more conservative than some w/ U joint angles, and will prob. run a CV rear shaft on this rig.
The reason I want to be sure to get the front right is that it'll sometimes be run at highway speeds in 4x4 in the snow.... Don't want any unhappy vibes there!
Prob w/ setting up the front is that AMC breaks the rules w/ the front setup on most CJs... Even though they have single cardan front shafts, front pinion and TC output yoke are far from parallel..(pinion would have to point down at the ground to do that!) The only spec in any of the factory TSMs I have is to have the front pinion 1 deg plus of drive shaft angle. This would make perfect sense w/ a CV setup (as w/ some auto CJs and FSJs) but doesn't follow the normal rules for a single cardan setup. The TSMs cover all models for their specific years, but don't give seperate specs for the various setups. (Am I surprised??!!)
I don't want to have to rotate the pumkin, so the only way to get the angles right (w/o messing up the caster angle) is w/ TC drop.
Hopefully it isn't a big deal, and I'll be fine, but I'd rather not find out @ 55 mph in the snow!

RandyJ
01-05-2004, 08:52 AM
You might also want to look at quadra-trac CJs' from the mid to late 70s' or Grand Wagoneers. They ran a CV front shafts even though the angles were good. Full time 4wd must have started causing some sort of vibration problem in the font drive shaft, or they were just trying to avoid problems. :-|

Rocky
01-05-2004, 09:06 AM
Maybe my biggest problem is attempting to figure out AMC "engineering"!!

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