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Stroking a 401 - Page 5
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Thread: Stroking a 401

  1. #41

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    Elliott, thanks for the input. From the research I've done I think my cam profile will land somewhere between 206/206 and 218/218. Incidently, Edelbrock recommended their Performer RPM cam. I could look into a custom grind but for my low RPM application I'm not sure the additional expence would justify the minimal gain. Narrowing cam selection down to a basic category is the easy part, nailing down the exact duration desired is the hard part. I need a cam with enough intake duration and valve lift to ensure the cylinder gets a good charge with a high velocity finish (taking advantage of the dual plane intake) and enough exhaust duration with enough lift to ensure good evacuation. I Don't think I want to go over 220 on either one because to much overlap will adversly affect performance at low PRM (hence the higher duration = more overlap works better at high RPM which demands the single plane manifold). I think the recomendation from both cam companies are in line and almost identical. Note that both are above what would normally be used for a low RPM application but because of the additional cubes a little more cam is required but would feel like a cam of lesser duration. This is a very difficult area of engine build and open to much debate. I welcome all the data I can get.
    77 J20

  2. #42

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    In the above post, I made a mistake. Edelbrock recommended their Performer Cam, not their Performer RPM cam. That would be difficult as they don't make a Performer RPM for the AMC. My apologies. Also Crane cam lists an AMC V8 application at 204/216, .456/.484 for a 1500 to 4500 rpm range. The Summit 8600 goes to 214/224 with, which may be a little fast for my application. I think the Comp cam is a good choice. If anyone would like to run and post the computer generated dyno numbers for these grinds that would be way cool.
    77 J20

  3. #43

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    cam selection

    How much torque can I expect form the stroked 401? To help answer this question lets look at a proven, long standing model, the BBC. I did some looking into how much torque the BBC can make in the RPM range I intend my 401 to operate in (idle to 4000 RPM). I'll throw this out: the BBC will produce more torque than the AMC 401 given equal rpm, cam grind, fuel and aspiration because the BBC has a longer stroke and bigger bore. Should be no surprise, simple physics. I'll surmise the Ch*vey Performance center has done more research and spent more $$ than any American automotive company in developing automotive engines. I went through their list and found a close comparison, the 454 XETREME 4X4. Check it out at the following:
    http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Chev...treme_4x4.html
    The dyno chart (actual dyno, not computer generated) states this engine will produce 462 ft/lbs of torque at 2400 rpm and tops out at 475 ft/lbs at 3500 rpm. The cam is a Comp Cam Xetreme Energy cam with a 206/212 and .510/.510 profile. Horsepower peaks at 316 @ 3500 rpm. I realize the compression ratio is only 8:1 on this engine. Raising compression ratio to 9:1 could increase torque and horsepower by as much as 4%. I believe if the Ch*vy engineers, utilizing their vast financial and technical resources, could have built a stronger engine while ensuring durability and affordability they would have.
    Conclusion: 500 ft/lbs of torque at 2400 RPM from a normally aspirated, reasonably bored (say .060) AMC 401 running on pump gas is not a reasonable expectation even if it is stroked to 3.827 or even 4 inches regardless of camshaft selection. I think 400, maybe a little more, ft/lbs at 2400 RPM is more realistic. What say you? I welcome any comments or substantiated/documented counter arguments.
    77 J20

  4. #44

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    Re: cam selection

    Quote Originally Posted by J20
    How much torque can I expect form the stroked 401?
    Conclusion: 500 ft/lbs of torque at 2400 RPM from a normally aspirated, reasonably bored (say .060) AMC 401 running on pump gas is not a reasonable expectation even if it is stroked to 3.827 or even 4 inches regardless of camshaft selection. I think 400, maybe a little more, ft/lbs at 2400 RPM is more realistic. What say you? I welcome any comments or substantiated/documented counter arguments.
    First off, I'm pretty sure you know more about what builds torque then I do. I've put some posts up here trying to learn some things that are AMC specific and I have some feelers out on other sites as well. I don't necessarily thing that the 454 is a good comparison for a few reasons, their heads just don't flow like an AMC head, and I believe the crank dimensions differ enough from the AMC that factors like smaller rod journals (and possibly lighter counter weights) might lead to less inertia/torque then the AMC crank. Also, Chevy uses an offset rod where AMC is not... and I don't know if that has any effect on torque in some way.
    I'd be interested to see a good hard write up of comparison, haven't found much as of yet and don't personally have the experience (or parts) to put it together myself.
    I'm pretty sure that MC here is planning to run some hard dyno tests on the 401 which should be revealing. The aspiration of a 401 is exceptional to start with and the addition of a 650-770cfm w/performer manifold will likely allow it to breath better then a stock '72 Pontiac 455 (that developed 300hp - 415ft/lbs 4,000/3,200rpm @8.2:1 comp.).... then up the compression to 9.5:1 on the 401..... and develop the perfect cam. I don't think 500ft/lbs is out of reach.
    I know there are a lot of people that don't think much of desk top dyno #s, and apparently Tony Zamisch is one of them. However, I've had one AMC doubter run some #s for me on the Performance Trends software that his shop uses to build offshore race engines (at 900 hp their DT dyno comes in within 10hp of measured hp) and he was pretty impressed with how quickly the AMC builds torque compared to the big three. Like you, it would still be nice to see the actual curves run and hopefully we can look forward to some being put up here at Bulltear.
    '65 J200 401

  5. #45

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    Elliott, I do appreciate your response. The data you speak of is exactly the kind of data that will rebuild (or re-announce) the once mighty reputation of the AMC 401. You are right on the dot with your comments about the superior airflow characteristics of the AMC dog-leg head design. I think the offset on the rod is no greater than .060. This can actually add torque as the offset is set to decrease the angle between rod and rod journal on the off-side travel decreasing the ever-changing force vector operating against downward travel or the force required to raise the piston. (the total force vector is a composite of the force vectors as the rod travels the circle, so when the crank throw is at 90 degrees to the rod the total force is only the downward vector. Past 90 degrees, the two will once again add to get the total force or add to get total force to raise piston). A very small gain. The offset also decreases the sideload on the cylinder wall. I, like you, do not have the resources to test various combinations and provide real torque data. I'll agree, the comparison of the AMC 401 to the BBC may not be perfect, but for the application it is close enough to draw conclusion. I'd love to get 500 ft/lbs at 2400 but I'm just not sure its possible. Please prove me wrong.
    77 J20

  6. #46

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    Oct 2003
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    Decatur Texas
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    You have probably read the June '98 Hotrod article, they don't specify if the 500ft/lbs was an actual dyno reading:
    http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-1.jpg
    http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-2.jpg
    http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-3.jpg
    http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-4.jpg
    http://www.javelinamx.com/JavHome/articles/hr0698-5.jpg

    There is a good write up on the 360 estimating ~450ft/lbs:
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/...lduppage1.jpeg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/...lduppage2.jpeg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/...lduppage3.jpeg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/...lduppage4.jpeg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/...lduppage5.jpeg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/360builduppage6.jpg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/...lduppage7.jpeg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/...lduppage8.jpeg
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/360builduppage9.jpg


    Indy Cylinder Head's 407/401 is most likely tested on an actual dyno:
    INDY AMC 401 (407ci) Bore x Stroke = 4.195 x 3.680 Bore to Stroke Ratio = 1.1399
    Aluminum AMC 401 500hp - 480ft/lbs 6,300/4,500rpm 10.75:1 on pump gas.
    Indy's heads supposedly don't flow all that much better then the 401 heads, and I don't think you really want them too for the low end torque. If this motor was cammed for low end torque and carbed vs injected I think you'd be a lil over 500ft/lbs. I've been trying to get more info from ICH, but they don't even have anymore catalogs and I have yet to receive the price list they promised me.

    I agree with you that getting some hard dyno #s would be sweet.... but don't hold your breath for me to come up with them as I'm still building my shop at present.
    '65 J200 401

  7. #47
    Thank you from BT ULTIMUS MAXIMUS STATUS
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    Hey Elliott, for some reason the second set of pages isn't coming up. Any suggestions? I've read the first article at home, but haven't seen the second. The only other true build up I've read on line is from www.jedi.com.
    Later tatter,
    Jack

  8. #48

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    Great Falls MT
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    I re-read the linked article, very impressive numbers. Thank you for posting it. The article states 508 ft/lbs at 5500 RPM. The cam spec is 274/282 at .050 108 degree lobe centers with unspecified lift. That is a lot of cam. I contend at 2400 RPM the torque is in the low 400 ft/lb range. If there is a cam out there capable of deliving 500 ft/lbs at 3500 - 4000 RPM, I sure would like to have one.
    77 J20

  9. #49

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    Oct 2003
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    Decatur Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted79CJ7
    Hey Elliott, for some reason the second set of pages isn't coming up. Any suggestions? I've read the first article at home, but haven't seen the second. The only other true build up I've read on line is from www.jedi.com.
    Later tatter,
    Jack
    Try this link and then click on the picture:
    http://amcforum2.tripod.com/rc_0788/

    Then here is the March 2004 HotRod 390 article:

    http://www.gremlinized.net/images/ar...otrod390p1.jpg

    http://www.gremlinized.net/images/ar...otrod390p2.jpg

    http://www.gremlinized.net/images/ar...otrod390p3.jpg

    http://www.gremlinized.net/images/ar...otrod390p4.jpg

    http://www.gremlinized.net/images/ar...otrod390p5.jpg
    '65 J200 401

  10. #50
    Thank you from BT ULTIMUS MAXIMUS STATUS
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    Sweet, thanks for the hook up Elliott!

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