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My 401 teardown progress
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Thread: My 401 teardown progress

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    Reading, PA
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    31

    My 401 teardown progress

    http://home.comcast.net/~christopher...n/teardown.htm

    Right now the block and heads are getting hot tanked and magnafluxed. The shop I took my 401 to seems pretty expensive. They want just over $400 to do this. They say it's because I didn't take all the pipe plugs and cam bearings out of the block, and the price includes the dissassembly of the heads.

    Over the phone they said $110 for the block if it wasn't completely dissassembled, and $70 if it was. The $70/$110 block cleaning / magnafluxing price wasn't including the heads, so this means they want approximately $150 per cylinder head to dissassemble and clean / magnaflux. Is this about right?

    They also do not bead blast engines, nor do they use torque plate boring / honing, which I really wanted done. There are no other machine shops around here and this one seems to get a lot of business.

    The crank, as indicated in the website above, is toast. The bearing was spun he said, and the caliper measured it was over 40 thou's off. They don't make rod bearings in 40 thou's undersize, so if anyone has a good crank or knows someone who does please let me know.

    I want to run a cam in this engine that has some noticable lope to it, but will be good for 20% offroad duty. The other 80% will be street driving / casual racing (I hardly beat my vehicles). Will the Comp Cams 280H stick be good for this, with an Edelbrock Air Gap intake and some Comp Cams 1.6 roller rockers? I also have a Holly 650 4bbl, long tube headers (by BlackJack?) and plan on buying something like this:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/401-A...18263563QQrdZ1

    I can have the cam in that kit substituted with another one, as well as the timing set as I may opt to get the rollmaster anti-walk set. I just want to make sure everything is compatible.

    The machine shop is also doing some mild head work, cutting new valve seats (size yet to be determined), new springs and supporting valve components. I will have a 3 angle valve job done, and mild porting, maybe even gasket matching. The heads will most likely need to be surfaced, and maybe material taken off. The block will probably also be surfaced, possibly taking material off... which leads to my number one concern.

    My number one concern is if I'll have enough clearance with the stock rods / TRW forged pistons / 1.6 roller rockers with the moderately agressive cam that I want.

    Other mods I plan on is an electric fan, electric water pump, electric fuel pump and a bulltear timing cover kit complete with new oil pump components. I have also mentioned to my machine shop that I want the oil valley line done, and I took in high quality color laser photos I got off this board to illustrate.

    Thanks for all your help guys!
    Chris

  2. #2
    Thank you from BT ULTIMUS MAXIMUS STATUS jeepsr4ever's Avatar
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    Hey Chris!

    I havent seen a 401 that bad for a while....broken fuel pump eccentric...WOW
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  3. #3
    Machining costs these days are getting ridiculous, that's why a pneumatic valve spring compressor and cam bearing driver are nice things to have, to at least save you some dough. The costs vary so much though that you can't really compare, but if they don't use torqueplates, I imagine a lot of their business comes from tractors and not hot rods

    For the majority of, as you put, "causual street-driving" it will see I imagine a 280H is a "step" or two too large, especially with only a 650 carb limiting your breathing there is no point in over-camming. I believe there is definitely better out there that you can find for a cam (especially since that 280 mag has chevy lobes ) , but if you like convenience, which may just be a good approach for a budget street rod, go for it.

    As for your valve clearance concerns, the only way to be sure is to check it yourself. I see the 280 mag installed @ 106* ICA will have about .123" valve lift @ TDC, but not unless someone has measured the distance from the valve and piston top @ TDC of a AMC, this may not mean much either (and then after that, what about dwell?), and even then piston crown configuration and cylinder head milling and many other things can change this.

    If you're interested in the reading, here is a article by David Reher about how they check their piston to valve clearance at RMRE, it may be argued that this method is a little "extreme" so you may just choose to do it the old fashioned way as well, just figured I'd throw it out there.

    With apologies to my sister the veterinarian, there is more than one way to skin a cat and more than one way to measure piston-to-valve clearance. I’m not an authority on cat skinning (nor do I want to be), but I do know about the importance of proper valve clearance in a racing engine. I see hundreds of engines come through our shop every year, and I’m alarmed by how many engines assembled by do-it-yourself builders have incorrect piston-to-valve clearance.

    There are two ways to get it wrong. The first is usually catastrophic: If you have insufficient clearance, the pistons hit the valves, followed by the predictable parts damage. On the other hand, if you have too much clearance, the engine will run, but it won’t achieve anything close to its performance potential. In either situation, you’ve wasted time and money that could have been saved by checking piston-to-valve clearance properly.

    Here is the method we use at Reher-Morrison Racing Engines. Not everyone may agree with our technique, and that’s all right. I am convinced, however, that it is the best way to achieve repeatable, accurate results.

    First, put away your clay and your light-tension checking springs. The time-honored practice of mocking up a motor and putting clay in the valve pockets to measure clearance introduces too many variables to be trustworthy. The amount of clay on the piston top, the density of the clay, the effect that the clay has on the relative positions of the valve and piston, and the difficulty of measuring the thickness of the compressed clay accurately are just a few of the sources of potential error with this method. You don’t use clay to measure piston-to-wall clearance and bearing clearance, and you shouldn’t use it to measure valve clearance either.

    You must use the same components when checking valve clearance that you intend to use when you assemble the engine. This includes the same lifters, the same pushrods, the same rocker arms, and the same valve springs. Light-tension checking springs simply can’t duplicate the load and deflection that the valvetrain experiences with stiff race springs. The difference in actual valve clearance between checking springs and race springs is typically .020 to .030-inch. If you set up your engine with checking springs with .075-inch intake valve clearance, the actual clearance with race springs will be closer to .100-inch.

    The first step in the Reher-Morrison method is to determine whether the valve pockets are located properly. A discarded valve that fits your cylinder head makes an ideal tool. Cut off the head of the valve and turn the stem to a point. Preassemble the engine with your bare cylinder heads (remember to use a previously compressed head gasket), put masking tape on the ring lands to center the piston in the bores, a bring the piston to 10 degrees before or after Top Dead Center (it doesn’t matter which at this point) and drop your homemade punch into the intake and exhaust guides. Give the punch a gentle tap to mark the valve stem centerline on the piston and then remove the head.

    To check the valve pocket location, remove the cylinder head and set a pair of calipers to the radius of the valve head (for example, for a 2.500-inch diameter valve head, set the calipers at 1.250-inch). With one point centered on the punch mark, swing the other point around the valve eyebrow. If the caliper hits the edge of the valve pocket, so will the valve. I recommend a minimum of .050-inch radial clearance between the edge of the valve and the pocket.

    If the valve relief is located properly, you must then check its angle. Again, a discarded valve with the proper stem diameter makes an excellent checking tool. Weld or epoxy a small steel ball onto the edge of a steel valve. Mark the tip of the valve stem with a notch in line with the ball as a reference point. If your engine has two different valve angles – a big-block Chevy or Cleveland Ford, for example – you will need to make intake and exhaust checking valves.

    Insert the checking valves into the bare head and install the head on the preassembled short block. Bring the piston to 10 degrees before or after TDC. Put a dial indicator on the tip of the valve stem and slowly rotate the valve with your fingers. If the stem rises and falls as the ball travels around the valve notch, the angle of the relief is incorrect. You can draw a “road map” by noting the position of the reference notch as you turn the valve. For example, if the valve stem rises near the top of the dome and falls at the bottom of the valve notch, then the angle of the valve relief is too steep. Using this technique, you can precisely determine how much material must be machined to correct the angle of the valve relief.

    After you have established that the valves have enough radial clearance in their respective notches and that the angles of the valve reliefs are correct, you are finally ready to check piston-to-valve clearance. Assemble the short-block and cylinder heads with the valvetrain components you intend to use. Adjust the valve lash, set up a dial indicator on the valve spring retainer so that its plunger is parallel to the valve stem, and bring the piston to 10 degrees BTDC. Compress the spring on the exhaust valve and measure the movement required for the valve to contact the piston. (We used a tool similar to a valve spring tester with a solid bar instead of a flat spring to compress the valve spring.) Move the dial indicator setup to the intake valve, rotate the crankshaft to 10 degrees ATDC, and repeat the procedure.

    This procedure and a little patience will ensure that your engine’s piston-to-valve clearance is measured correctly. The ideal clearance dimension for your combination will depend on the weight of your engine’s valvetrain components (especially whether you use steel or titanium valves), the maximum rpm, the tension of the valve springs, the characteristics of the camshaft, and other factors.

    In most instances, off-the-shelf pistons have valve pockets that are too deep and provide much more valve clearance than is really necessary. This is perfectly understandable, because the piston manufacturers can’t anticipate every possible combination of cylinder head, camshaft, block height, valve height, gasket thickness, etc. They don’t want to hear from an angry customer who crashed all the valves in a new engine, so the piston makers typically machine the reliefs in shelf-stock pistons with clearance for the worst case scenario. Then to compensate for the oversize valve reliefs, the piston dome is made taller to produce the advertised compression ratio.

    The downside of this situation is that overly generous valve reliefs cost horsepower. For example, a 2.50-inch diameter valve pocket that is .100-inch deeper than it really needs to be has a volume of 8 cc’s. That much volume at TDC can significantly lower the compression ratio, reducing efficiency and power. It’s much better to have the proper piston-to-valve clearance and a shorter dome that doesn’t intrude as far into the combustion chamber.

    Imagine two engines with the identical compression ratio. One has pistons with valve reliefs that are too deep and domes that resemble Mt. Everest; the second has pistons with optimized valve reliefs and shorter, rounded domes. Both engines have the same volume above the piston at TDC, but the engine with the proper valve reliefs and shorter domes will have a substantial horsepower advantage.

    Measuring piston-to-valve clearance properly is one of the basic operations that every novice engine builder should master. It’s not as sexy as flow bench testing or as high-tech as running dyno simulations on your laptop, but it is an absolutely essential step in building a reliable and powerful racing engine.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Reading, PA
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    Well, I could always get a bigger carb :) Just thought 650 was the right size for a 401. There's so many mixed reviews on cams when I search, I just want the happy medium between 20% offroading and 80% street, with real good power, decent low end torque and some definite noticable cam lope. Nothing makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up more than cam lope, except maybe turbo spool.

    Will I still need the eccentric after an electric fuel pump?

    Are torque plates something that should definitely be used here? The machinist said they can screw the block up if not done just right. I think that means they are too cheap to get the proper equipment. If torque plates are that important, I'll consider going elsewhere. I want to do everything right the first time.

    Just because a machine shop has the equipment to do torque plates, does that necessarily mean they have AMC 401 torque plates? I wouldn't want to pull the engine, travel far just to find out they need a $400 dollar torque plate set for a AMC 401.

  5. #5

    The Definition of a "Lope"

    If you understand what a lope is, you can see it is not by any means "desirable" especially for something where economy is of concern. A lope is a mis-fire, caused by residual exhaust gases contaminating the incoming charge because of excessive overlap for the engine speed associated, large cams also require richer mixtures to support the higher and less efficient idle which then has more fuel running around the top of the cylinder, which can adversely effect ring seal over time.

    I was lead to believe by writings by Smoky Yunick, Dave Vizard, Dave Reher, ect that torque-plates are absolutely necessary for performance engines. The only purpose of a torque plate is to simulate the stresses the cylinder head makes, so the bore size of the plate makes no difference, so I'm not sure if a more common plate can be fitted to a AMC, maybe some AMC junkie around here will (hint, hint)

    Here is article from Joe Mondello disscussing torque plates and block machining processes, of course the cryogenic freezing and vibration stress relieving is some crazy stuff for a street ride, but it's still worth a look
    http://www.utterpower.com/mondello.htm

  6. #6
    Thank you from BT Master Mechanic
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    MN
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    Have 401 crank

    I have a 401 crank laying around...it has some rust on it, should clean up nicely with a .010 under and polish. But it has a bad thrust surface. Would need welded up and machined. Let me know what you want to spend...if its enough I may part with it. Also have a good set of 401 rods somewhere.

    Located in Willmar, MN
    If this new part can't break....what old part will??

  7. #7

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    Jul 2004
    Location
    Reading, PA
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    Would anyone know of any machine shops with modern enough equipment to do torque plate boring and shot peening in the Pennsylvania area? I'm looking for a shop with competitive prices. This doesn't mean cheap, just one that charges the average. The shop the block is at now for some reason makes me feel like I'm being raped.

  8. #8
    Thank you from BT Tech Master Bulltear Forum
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    napa in williamstown does shot blasting call rob 856-629-5474

    best ever 11.669 @ 112.33 mph in 1/4 mile on 33 x 10.50 slicks and 4" lift / 7.358 @ 93.03 mph in the 1/8 mile

  9. #9

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    Would you happen to know if they do torque plates fuzzy?

  10. #10
    Thank you from BT Tech Master Bulltear Forum
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    he does not have one he used someones else when he did my block

    best ever 11.669 @ 112.33 mph in 1/4 mile on 33 x 10.50 slicks and 4" lift / 7.358 @ 93.03 mph in the 1/8 mile

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