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My 401 teardown progress - Page 2
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Thread: My 401 teardown progress

  1. #11
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    401 build

    The 401 can use a quite healthy cam w/o any additional valve notching done to those TRW pistons, they are not even flattops, they have quite the dish and you will have to have some work done to get up to the 9.5~1 they claim. Which means you will be detonation prone more so than at 11~1. You will have a hard time getting the needed .040"~.045" piston head to cylinder head clearance with those pistons. I have a set here now that someone milled out like HDMD says to do. Had close to an eighth inch of clearance and would ping even with race gas. That's also called self-destruction. Those pistons have almost the same head design as stock, they may be exactly the same, and I recall they wee approved for NHRA stock class, which means they DO have stock dish. I think they use the big rings like the stockers as well (I may be wrong about that, do check). For performance, you should use 1/16" compression rings. If you have a couple of hundred extra bucks, go for TotalSeal gapless rings. They are worth an extra chunk of power (20 or more HP) after break-in, and should have 0% leakdown after break-in.

    I would strongly advise AGAINST buying that kit, or any kit. Buy each piece to fit what you want to do with the engine.

    The Ross 13.25~1 flattops are a much better way to go. They do have valve notches though they are not specific to AMC but generic. What year are your heads? If they are the later model ones and if someone is doing head work to open the combustion chamber, you could easily end up with 11~1 or less. Which would be OK with pump gas if your carburetion, timing, & cooling system are all in good repair and tuned correctly. It makes an enormous difference in power (around 50 HP in an engine built to run strong).

    You have to figure out how you will run it, what RPM range it will be used for. The design is easily capable of over 7000 RPM, over 500 HP, & over 500 ft/lbs. of torque, with the correct mods. Getting one to burst to 6500 & have 500 HP/500 ft/lbs. is a fairly easy and will still have more than enough torque down low, somewhere around 400 ft/lbs. at 2500 RPM.

    You DO need a head plate, for sure. Have them box up your stuff and find a speed shop that knows AMC before your hemmorhoids reach the floor!!! There is a place in Jersey, I think, called Pro Motion that does good AMC work.

    If you opt for the 500 HP burst to 6500 redline route, and if your valves need to be replaced, you can use stainless undercut swirl-polished 2.08/1.74 valves (Milodon, Ferrea, etc.) to easily gain another 30 HP for around $150 plus labor.

    You should also have your head's spring seats turned to use cup seats, a 1.5"~1.65" diameter x 1.95" tall spring. Better to do that correct the first time than have to pull the heads later to do it. If you opt for a smaller cam, there are many spring packages that will fit those dimensions. Then later, if you decide to go for more cam, all you have to do is use air pressure to hold th valves closed while you install a more aggressive spring package. Very easy, if the machine work is done the first time through.

    The airgap has a little more down low but the Torker has more up high, your call. An 850 double-pumper is definately not too much for a strong 401, if you are geared correctly & have a stick, or performance converter.

    The 292H is a good cam (the 280H loses 25 HP & gains 9 ft.lbs. tq) but is a chevy grind. I have heard that Crane uses AMC specific grinds but I have my doubts. Doug Herbert custom grinds cams to the customer's wishes. He can make one for you after he asks you some questions.
    http://www.dougherbert.com/

    The anti-camwalk kits are made by Nick Alfano, may as well go to the source:
    http://www.matadorcoupe.com/Alfano.htm

    An MSD style ignition is worth the expense when you can afford it.

    Be sure to see the Bulltear threads concerning oiling mods & distributor gear wear. Put your engine together yourself.

    If the engine is put together and maintained correctly, it could be good for 20 years or more w/o teardown. Switch to synthetic oil after 1500 miles (according to TotalSeal), keep it clean, and keep the intake air filtered.

    The mods I have discussed here do nothing to add to engine wear and serve to make the engine run more efficiently. A more efficient engine makes more power. The gas mileage should suffer little, depending on what your right foot does.

    Get the "Performance American Style" book!!!!! It has all kinds of good tech.

    If you notice from my posts, I try to push ppl towards higher performance rather than being conservative. This is because the "dogleg" heads flow so VERY good that putting a Performer intake or 650 carb or small-tube headers on a 360 390 or 401 serves to choke it down when the heads want to flow way more. I believe that the heads are the heart of the engine and everything else should compliment those fine ports.

    Off-brand guys will want to argue that you shouldn't do that, ask them how many AMCs they have built and if they even have one, then decide who you will believe. Maybe they have a vested interest in having the AMC guys make less HP, and for good reason!!!

    I'm sure there's much more to say, but my fingees are getting shorter & shorter!!!

  2. #12
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    401 build

    I forgot to mention, make sure the cam bearings get installed correctly!!!!

    They are NOT installed like some of the off-brands, the oiling hole in the block is offset & if they aren't put in correctly, big problems will be yours.

    FYI to the AMC experts here: Some of the AMC V8s were assembled by the factory with the cam brgs backwards, meaning smallest one in front and a cam that was stubborn enough upon ATTEMPTED removal that the junkyards became home for those engines. You had to remove the cam plug in the back of the engine, then the cam came out just like it was supposed to be R&R'd from the rear. I've seen 3 and have talked to a few long time AMC wrenches that were perplexed by that situation and gave up!!! I guess it was for cam walk control.

  3. #13

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    Wow, now see that's the type of response I was looking for!

    So you are saying I won't get 9.8:1 with those TRW forged pistons as advertised? I don't really want to deck the block unless that is mandatory as well??? I don't understand what you meant that I'll be more detonation prone at 9.8:1 than 11~1. Besides, I thought no more than 10~1 should be used with pump gas (93, 94 octane). I don't know what year my heads are, but I think the 401 came from a '77 Wagoneer, so they are probably the 58cc's.

    Wow, I didn't know gapless rings made such a difference. I'd definitely invest into those, especially since I was considering them anyway.

    As far as distributor, I was thinking going HEI. Right now it used some type of electronic distributor / coil package controlled by a box with the Motorcraft name brand on it.

    Any comments on the loose timing chain video on my site? Do they make a timing GEAR set for AMC v8's, or are they all chain? I love the noisy timing gear sound.

    You said assemble the engine yourself, I have never done that. Plus if I get a warranty (say like from PRO MOTION) if they assemble it, shouldn't I let them do the shortblock?

    I'll keep PRO MOTION in mind - I'll travel to a neighboring state if they have modern equipment and have the services available that I want, especially if they are AMC experts.

    Any other suggestions?

  4. #14

    Definition of Quench

    A engine can definitely be more prone to pinging with a higher compression ratio if it sacrifices combustion efficiency "somewhere" else. Piston to head clearance, or commonly coined "Quench" or "Squench" is the combination of the flat parts of the combustion chamber and piston. A tight clearance here is essential for having a octane-limited engine run well. It lowers exhaust temps at the end of the exhaust cycle and acts as a "billow" that "shoots" fuel charge from this "dead" area into the actual combustion chamber. Overall it is good for power, fuel economy, and detonation resistance. And there really isn't any negative consequences that come to mind.

    I personally think 11:1 with iron heads is awfully lot for pump-fuel (for any engine!), but that's just my opinion. If you went up to a 292 like Holeshot mentioned that would help, but a larger cammed engine also needs more total advance, so it might be a trade-off. Like Holshot will tell you though I'm no AMC master technician, but I can tell you one thing. The theoretical horsepower increase from a 10:1 to 11:1 mechanical compression ratio is about 2.5% (actual increase is usually slightly higher), so if that is worth possibly having to run the engine on race fuel, that's your choice. But there is also a minimum advertised compression ratio as well. With that 280 Magnum your considering you will need about 9.5:1 static compression. If you step up to a 292, then that number goes up to about 10:1. Of course these numbers are not set in stone, just "rule of thumb" figures used by Westech Perf and Comp Cams ( to list a few), and are based on a calculated dynamic compression ratio of 8:1. Use this calculator here to figure your static compression ratio.
    http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

    I really believe you should consider decking your block. Especially if your gonna search for a machine shop that uses torque plate boring and honing, decking will pretty much be required there.

  5. #15
    Thank you from BT ULTIMUS MAXIMUS STATUS tufcj's Avatar
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    Holeshot - I have to call BS on the blocks being machined with the smallest cam bearing in the front. The front bearing is different from the rest (wider), so it couldn't be put in the rear journal. That would mean a different sized than stock front bearing, and also a cam which was machined with it's journals backwards to fit. Not to mention the block being installed backwards in the milling machine at the factory (I doubt the fixtures would have allowed that). It just doesnt make sense. If you can show me one of these blocks, I'd love to see it, along with proof that it's factory. I've had literally dozens of AMC v-8s apart. I have seen that the factory cam bearings are prone to flaking, but never any mis-machining. More than likely, if something is that wrong, it's been done outside the AMC factory.

    Now there is documentation that a few blocks were made with oversize cam bearings. Oversize cam bearings are not available anymore. Those blocks are basically useless once the bearings fail. I've also seen mis-installed front bearings that burr up so the cam won't come out.

    Bob
    tufcj
    1969 AMX
    1967 Rambler Rogue

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  6. #16
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    my ross flat tops are not like the ones mad dog sells my valve reliefs are much bigger




    decking the block and getting the rods all the same will get you the quench you want and a stronger rod



    my cam spec

    best ever 11.669 @ 112.33 mph in 1/4 mile on 33 x 10.50 slicks and 4" lift / 7.358 @ 93.03 mph in the 1/8 mile

  7. #17

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    The reason I'm leary of decking is that it will screw up alignment of the intake to head runners. I might be taking that to an extreme, though.

    Anyone ever hear of "hot" boring? Boring an engine when hot coolant is ran through it, in addition to torque plates?

    Fuzz, for what reason are your valve reliefs larger directly from Ross than Maddog? That's interesting... Also have you dyno'd your 401? I see you are using a cam for a 390 AMC.

  8. #18
    Thank you from BT Tech Master Bulltear Forum
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    all I know is that came that way
    no I have not had it dyno'd in lancaster there is one I like to get in there to see what I have to the rear tires

    best ever 11.669 @ 112.33 mph in 1/4 mile on 33 x 10.50 slicks and 4" lift / 7.358 @ 93.03 mph in the 1/8 mile

  9. #19
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    So sorry "tufcj", I have to call you iggy. What I said is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing BUT the truth!!!

    I don't know that they put the brgs in bw, but I can tell you for a FACT that the cams would not come out the front and would ONLY come out the back, after removing the engine and then the cam plug.

    If you have not seen one, that is your problem, don't even call me a liar.

    Maybe you need to do some research and talk to some long time AM mechanics.

    Have you heard of "Dave Basa", he has lots of AMXs and moved from Elkhart Indiana to Florida a while back. He's had his blown AMX in several mags and sells lots of AM parts on Ebay, and I think he is running a biz doing AM parts in FL. Anyway, when he lived up here, he admitted to me that he had come across a few that he couldn't get the cam out of, but didn't try out the back.

    Just because you have not experienced it does not mean I'm bs-ing anyone.

    Ever been to the Moon? How do you know that anyone has been there?

    What a way for a moderator to act, now that IS bullsh*t.

  10. #20

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    I called PRO-MOTION in NJ, and their prices are very reasonable and they were very nice, however they do not have AMC torque plates =(

    Anywhere else?

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